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 Small Layout Design Help/Challenge - c.1905 Pennsy
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Author Previous Topic: Projects in Progress on the Southern Central RR Topic Next Topic: forced perception question
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shortliner
Crew Chief



Posted - 11/05/2018 :  09:04:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ryan - just saw this on FB - East Tennessee & North Western Carolina, 1920s in On30, by Rob Chant, which might add to your ideas https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10217311496044031&set=oa.2005816222816869&type=3&theater


Edited by - shortliner on 11/05/2018 09:08:05 AM

Country: United Kingdom | Posts: 522 Go to Top of Page

vamodeler
Engine Wiper



Posted - 11/05/2018 :  1:49:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit vamodeler's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Liking this topic. Always been a fan of the WD&L. I assume you have a copy of Wild Catting on the Mountain by Ben Kline? You need one. There is one used on Amazon for about 25.00. Talks all about the lumber company associated and the history of the WD&L. Great stuff.

I noticed for inbound traffic that you missed hauling
coal to a lime kiln at Eastville. I'm not sure where that is and if the coal was transferred to wagons.

I built the "dairy" car in On3 years ago a fun build and odd car for a Climax loco run line.

There are some good photo's on the "Sugar Valley - Clinton County PA" facebook page. Not that you don't already have great pictures of the line...


Brian




My Website: http://sites.google.com/site/deercreekandlaurelry/

Edited by - vamodeler on 11/05/2018 9:06:05 PM

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robchant
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 11/05/2018 :  1:53:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Brian,

I was looking for your email yesterday ... I thought you might have some input on this thread ... glad you showed up.

Take care,
Rob.



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vamodeler
Engine Wiper



Posted - 11/05/2018 :  2:37:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit vamodeler's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Rob,

Good to hear from you. I've been lurking to see where this goes.....

Here is another great free reference on the line:

https://journals.psu.edu/phj/article/viewFile/22029/21798

Cheers!

Brian


My Website: http://sites.google.com/site/deercreekandlaurelry/

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robchant
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 11/05/2018 :  2:43:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Brian,

Thanks for the link ... but I found that PDF a couple of days ago ... for a small line there is quite a bit online about it ... someone just needs to put it all together into one webpage. I have it marked for a future research project ... but hope some one beats me to it and does all the hard work.

Take care,
Rob.




Country: Canada | Posts: 1142 Go to Top of Page

RyanAK
New Hire

Posted - 11/06/2018 :  4:43:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So... Iím under 40 (for another 3 weeks...) but Iím not on FaceBook... so canít see anything posted in the group there. But if itís by Rob Chant... it must be good!

I have the first 4 PA logging books and they are fascinating. I also have Taber IIIís ďMuncy Valley LifelineĒ about the Williamsport & North Branch and Eagles Mere railroads. Sonestown is my next layout design challenge. And oh, it will be a challenge!!

But back to Loganton and the WD&L for now... I really appreciate all the feedback Iíve been getting here and over on MRH. Fun stuff.

I canít find the exact location of the lime kiln in Eastville, but Eastville was down valley from the railroadís terminus at Loganton. Carroll is in the vicinity, but the only images I can find of the WD&L at Carroll only show a small station along the main. So my assumption is that the kiln had a siding for coal deliveries somewhere along the line. Even if just to transfer to wagons. Canít confirm it one way or another though...

I do wish I could access the information that gets posted on facebook without actually joining facebook... sounds like there are some good resources there. There is information, but as you say Rob, itís scattered about. I just got a response from the station master in White Deer confirming I have a current email address, so hopefully he will be able to fill in some of the gaps. I do love this stuff... maybe Iíll find the time to compile and get a webpage up.

Right now I just wish I had a good idea of the prototype trackage at Loganton and White Deer. Just for starters before I start drawing lines on my layout sketch.

Rob... wait until you see the operations at Sonestown. Another interesting place with some photos and writing to try to piece together the puzzle. Narrow gauge and standard gauge together. Fascinating stuff!

Thanks for contributing. Having fun here in Pennsylvania.

R


Designing a 1905-ish Pennsylvania Short Line
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51030&whichpage=1

Country: USA | Posts: 40 Go to Top of Page

robchant
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 11/06/2018 :  7:22:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Ryan,

Being on FB wouldn't have helped you see the post much, it is a private group and you would have to join as well. It is a good group devoted to small and micro layout designs. I just posted the layout that Jack (shortliner) mentioned to my Layout Design Ideas thread. The reason I didn't post it here was that I felt it didn't met your G&D's very well. The only thing that might interest you was that the station on the layout is a mock-up based on the Loganton station, althou you can't see it that well since it is facing the backdrop. (I am anticipating doing a 3D view of Loganton for you as some point, and wanted to get started.)

Take care,
Rob.



Country: Canada | Posts: 1142 Go to Top of Page

RyanAK
New Hire

Posted - 11/07/2018 :  6:31:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Boy, you stay busy Rob! I love the consideration you put into your designs. Well done! And the offer to 3D Loganton is very kind! Weíll see if we get there!

So... I was able to get in touch with the Station Master at the White Deer Reading Station and he might have additional info on the White Deer & Loganton that will help clear up some of the mysteries at Loganton. So Iím going to put that layout design on the back burner until I can meet at the station and review the material. Supposedly there are trackage maps...

Letís take a look at Sonestown c.1905. Sonestown is pretty fascinating. I drive through it on my way to our cabin in Sullivan County and Iíve been able to gather some good info about the operations there. Sonestown was the interchange between the Williamsport & North Branch Railroad and the 3í gauge Eagles Mere Railraod. Really fascinating history of these two lines, well researched and presented in Thomas T. Taber, IIIís Muncy Valley Lifeline. This book is very similar to the PA Logging books. Highly recommended if you like neat short lines before the Great Depression.

Here are some highlights of why I find Sonestown so compelling.

* The W&NB ran some interesting locomotives, including Baldwin camelbacks.
* The EMRR owned 16- and 36-ton Dunkirks. Nifty!!
* The EMRR also ran a 38-ton Climax almost exclusively for passenger service
* There was a lot of dual gauge track and operations at Sonestown. The third rail ran all the way to Muncy Valley to deliver bark to the tannery there.
* There were a lot of W&NB daily trains running to and through Sonestown, including passenger trains, peddler freight, and coal drags from Bernice. They interchanged with the LVRR at Satterfield and Bernice, and with the Reading at Halls Station.
* There was at least one sleeper daily running on the Reading from Philadelphia to Sonestown during the season to get the gentry to their three-story summer ďcottagesĒ or the luxury resorts at Eagles Mere.
* The EMRR was doing brisk passenger service to Eagles Mere, as well as bringing timber and bark down the mountain.
* Major industries in Sonestown are a sawmill and a clothespin factory.
LCL, coal, express, mail and other freight also came to Sonestown.
*The EMRR shops were at Sonestown.
* There were narrow and standard gauge wyes for turning locomotives, but no standard gauge runaround. Sonestown was a standard gauge spur, so W&NB trains had to either back down or back out of Sonestown to the main.
* Because of the lack of a standard gauge runaround and the orientation of the trackage at Sonestown, only northbound W&NB trains could switch the industries with standard gauge or dual gauge track. Southbound trains could drop off or pick up a cut of cars.
* However, the narrow gauge EMRR could switch at least the clothespin factory... I think. Iím still trying to determine exactly how the track was arranged... standard, narrow, and dual gauge. Iím piecing things together from photographs again.
* Iíd give anything for a c.1905 map of Sonestown that shows the trackage!!

This isnít something that could fit in 2íx12í without serious compression and editing. But Iím going to lift the size constraints and see what I can come up with in a reasonable amount of space. My ďoperating trickĒ will be to include two traversers, one at either end of the main. That way both north- and southbound trains can be staged and received... ďenter and exit the stageĒ if you will.

Hereís the map that Taber included of Sonestown. From the following photos, youíll see that it isnít perfectly accurate or complete, but it will give the lay of the land.



ó

I like photos, so hereís a few to get the sense of what was happening in Sonestown along Muncy Creek in 1905.



This might be my favorite railroad photograph. I love it. This is the station at Sonestown, looking south. The W&NB is to the left on the dual gauge track. EMRR 3í gauge to the right. You can just barely make out the W&NB main on the hill to the left.

ó



Sonestown in 1903 looking southwest from above the W&NB main. The main can be seen along the bottom of fit photo along with a water tank. Southbound to Muncy Valley, Hughesville and Halls runs to the left and down the valley to the back of the photo. Northbound to Nordmont, Laporte and Satterfield runs off the lower right corner. The station is downslope from the main. In the center-right of the photo, the clothespin factory is under construction, with Muncy Creek behind it. Narrow gauge passenger cars of the Eagles Mere RR can be seen lined up just right of center. The 16-ton Dunkirk is pushing out a pair of what looks like flat cars loaded with finshed lumber. Logs coming into the sawmill would be on narrow gauge EMRR cars, but outbound finished product would need to be on standard gauge cars. Thereís a lot of detail in this photo... I wish I had a better resolution copy of it.

ó



Narrow gauge log cars and standard gauge box cars at the clothespin factory. The station is barely visible behind the tree at the lower left. Again... wish I had a better resolution photo of this scene!

ó



Looking northeast-ish. Station with EMRR narrow gauge nearest and a W&NB train on the far side of the station. The W&NB main is on the hillside. While the trackage on the far side of the station is dual gauge and continues with three rails all the way to Muncy Valley (south... to the right in this photo) the main on the hillside in this photo will be only standard gauge. The switch down into Sonestown is to the right of this photo. Also... the spur coming off the dual gauge track (visible in the gap between narrow gauge cars) appears to be only standard gauge.

ó



The clothespin factory is the predominant structure in this view looking northwest. Sonestown town is beyond and across Muncy Creek. In the lower right is one of the EMRR shop buildings. Some trackage can be made out... there are at least three narrow gauge tracks to the left of the shop building with two stopping and the road and one continuing to the left edge of the photo along the stacks of finished lumber. Between the finished stick lumber and the logs waiting to be turned into clothespins you can see the tops of some narrow gauge passenger equipment.

ó

So... puzzle pieces to be put together. But I think a neat, operationally interesting, achievable one-town layout is within these images. And I donít think it needs to be all that large... especially if we donít model the mill and sawmill, but simply represent them where they interacted with the railroad.


Designing a 1905-ish Pennsylvania Short Line
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51030&whichpage=1

Edited by - RyanAK on 11/08/2018 09:51:12 AM

Country: USA | Posts: 40 Go to Top of Page

RyanAK
New Hire

Posted - 11/08/2018 :  12:44:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here are some markups with my best guesses as to how the track was arranged at Sonestown.

BLUE = W&NB standard gauge; RED = EMRR 3í narrow gauge; GREEN = dual gauge.

First, Taberís map - incomplete but gives a general overview:



ó

And the view looking generally south with the clothespin factory under construction. Some mysteries remain, but this is my current best guess with what Iíve been able to gather from photographs. M.V. is Muncy Valley; Sones is Sonestown across Muncy Creek; EM is Eagles Mere up the mountain. ď?Ē indicate a lack of firm evidence in a particular area.



ó


Designing a 1905-ish Pennsylvania Short Line
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51030&whichpage=1

Country: USA | Posts: 40 Go to Top of Page

David J Buchholz
Crew Chief

Posted - 11/08/2018 :  8:40:56 PM  Show Profile  Send David J Buchholz an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Enjoying the photos. Only wish you had more room to model, because its tough to figure out what scene to limit yourself to.

Home of the North Coast Railroad.

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rca2
Engine Wiper

Posted - 11/08/2018 :  9:03:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great period photos.

One strange thing I noticed. The 2 section houses and the only water tank are on the standard gauge main line rather than the dual gauge track.


Modeling Arizona Eastern Railroad, Hayden Junction (1920), in On30

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robchant
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 11/09/2018 :  05:09:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great photos and maps.

Is it possible that the wyes were used as run-around tracks on both lines?



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RyanAK
New Hire

Posted - 11/09/2018 :  11:23:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh to have more room! Iím going to stick with my benchwork dimensions for the Loganton design, as I think itís very achievable in 2x8 + 4í extension. Even with minimum compression. Sonestown, however, Iím hoping to draw out with minimum compression as see what would be required... then start trimming and compressing to get something that has the feel of the prototype into a reasonable sized benchwork. I think Sonestown could be my Ďsomedayí layout.

The tank... it was initially strange to me for it to be located up there on the standard gauge main as well. But... I believe they pumped water up to the tank from Muncy Creek and then had water cranes down near the depot dual gauge and narrow gauge tracks.







Designing a 1905-ish Pennsylvania Short Line
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51030&whichpage=1

Country: USA | Posts: 40 Go to Top of Page

RyanAK
New Hire

Posted - 11/09/2018 :  11:26:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rob... itís certainly possible. I donít have much info on the tracks across Muncy Creek beyond Taberís map. However, Taber states in his book that Sonestown was a spur and standard gauge trains needed to either back down to (southbound trains) or back out of (northbound trains) Sonestown. I wish I had some images of any industries, team track, coal dealers, etc. that were on the other side of Muncy Creek and nearer to the village of Sonestown.


Designing a 1905-ish Pennsylvania Short Line
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51030&whichpage=1

Country: USA | Posts: 40 Go to Top of Page

RyanAK
New Hire

Posted - 11/15/2018 :  2:21:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So... after some reality checks... Sonestown has to be relegated to my ďsomedayĒ layout. Itís fascinating and it has a good grip on me. But the space needed, the trackage, and the odd locomotives and large amount of rolling stock needed to attain a layout that is a good representation of the story, character and operations of Sonestown is beyond what I can achieve at the moment.

But Iíll keep dreaming and sketching... because... well, LOOK at it! Itís fascinating! But dual gauge, Dunkirks, camelbacks, etc. is not achievable at this stage of life.

But... Loganton is achievable.

I tracked down a few more interesting photos, but still no answers on the trackage. I may make a trip to the Taber museum in Williamsport where Thomas Taber IIIís collection is housed and see what I may be able to find. And I need to meet up with the station master at the White Deer station. Lacking any additional information, weíll design something interesting and probable.

Early days of the WD&L in Loganton:







Right now is deciding how to go about modeling an HOn3 25-ton Climax. I think everything else is pretty straight forward... maybe a few simple scratchbuilt structures, some interesting scenery, neat trackage, and a reasonable number of freight and passenger cars that I think Iíve located reasonable models for. This should be fun... :)

R


Designing a 1905-ish Pennsylvania Short Line
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51030&whichpage=1

Country: USA | Posts: 40 Go to Top of Page
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