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Author Previous Topic: 1892 Standard Oil Empty Barrel Car Topic Next Topic: Projects in Progress on the Southern Central RR
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OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 12/29/2018 :  2:04:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
An update of sorts...

Thus far NOTHING (of my TOC19 stash) has been marketed.

AND... it may not.

I MIGHT have thought of a way to scratch my TOC19 itch, albeit not quite the fashion I envisioned...

Dual era.

Seeing as I'm moving back to Ozark railroading circa early-mid 1960s, and seeing as I do not intend to model sprawling towns... then the possibility of dual era MIGHT give me a way to scratch my TOC19 itch when needed and thus would not be "ultimate" as the case would be if I unload my stuff.

I could have two depots on hand (one new looking, the other 1960s' looking) for the towns that use depots, and some key structures that can be swapped out at towns. Any backdrop photo structures would need to be dual era.

Yes, some complication... but definitely "do-able" IF:

* I DO discover there is indeed operational issues code 88 wheels as my tests indicated, and address the issues accordingly. (Like taking the easy out: Returning to 110 wheels.)

* IF I clean the steam engine wheels/track BEFORE I switch era's.

Even though early-mid 1960s would be my main modeling thrust, I think the above would be a better approach instead of summarily declaring TOC19 "not do-able" for my previous Givens 'n Druthers" and liquidating. This would allow me to indulge in TOC19 for weeks until I have the urge to return to my diesels.

SO, as opposed to the above "liquidate" scenario, then it may behoove me to see if I can adapt new "Givens 'n Druthers". After all, in the dateless past, I WAS interested in modeling the Ozarks via TOC19... so why not again? I might have to shift my era a bit from the "1880s" to the LATE 1880s, or even the EARLY 1890s, but wouldn't that be better than chucking TOC19 altogether?

Definitely food for thought.

All fer now.

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 12/29/2018 2:07:54 PM

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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 12/29/2018 :  5:35:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Seems reasonable to me.

As I work on my track this week, I am reminded of something I discovered long ago: you can't expect equipment that hasn't been run for several weeks to run very well on track that hasn't been cleaned at least a little bit. My 2-8-0 is running pretty darn well, in part because I've been running it around the layout several times every day for a couple of weeks now. Actually running my layout with a little housekeeping is not a bad price to pay for a layout and equipment that run well.

I think two eras is a very achievable goal, especially for rural lines.

Mike




_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Country: USA | Posts: 4668 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 12/29/2018 :  6:25:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Mike!

Actually, I DIDN'T expect the testing steam engines to run perfect. I WANTED to see what they would be like in less than perfect conditions. What I DID notice is that I had no electrical contact issues with any of my 4 axle diesels on the same track. (And they had not been for longer periods than the steam engines.)

IMHO, no matter what one does to steam engines, I doubt they'll ever be as dependable as 4-axle diesels in maintaining electrical contact. Just the nature of the beast. In the past, I even used phosphor bronze (Tomar) "sliders": Two on the tender and two on the loco frame, and I would still have issues as dirt would build up on the sliders along with the wheels happening pretty quickly.

In view of my my tests, I think the real culprit in view of electrical contact was the little lightweight, unmodified (no additional contacts) Bachmann NT 4-4-0's I used in my testing. If I had one of my MDC OT's with nickle silver wheels ready to use, the results likely would have been more favorable. But, I digress on the pros/cons of steam vs diesels.

Dual Era:

Yes, I do think it would be "do-able" to have a mountainous rural layout that is capable of carrying dual era's. This won't be an "oh... I want to run a steam engine" kind of impulse thing. Instead, to switch era's would be a wholesale removal (and storing) of the diesel era equipment, swapping out the key structures, then clean track, clean TOC19 wheels, then place the TOC19 stuff on layout and THEN I'm ready to run trains. I suspect switching era's would take at least a long evening, or the better part of a day. ONCE in the TOC19 mode, then stay in that mode for weeks/months until the urge for diesels returns. Same with the diesels: Stay in that mode until the "need" to play with the steam again.

At least this way I will not have to face the rather tough pill to swallow of giving up hope of ever enjoying TOC19 on a layout.

With this idea, it could be that my TOC19 stuff will simply stay in the "on call" state and serve as a mental safety net for me... but if indeed it gets to the point that I want to make it happen... then a dual era would be do-able, albeit at the cost of more effort for duplicate structures/etc.

All fer now!

Andre



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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 12/29/2018 :  10:52:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You would not have to change out all the structures because some of the TOC commercial buildings and homes would survive into the diesel era. Barns and farmhouses in particular. Any many old commercial buildings were brought up to date by expansion, not tearing down and rebuilding.

Mike


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Country: USA | Posts: 4668 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 12/30/2018 :  12:08:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are exactly right, Mike. With careful planning of my towns, and making sure any isolated vehicular road(s) on layout are dirt roads, it could be that swapping out only the depots (and maybe some structures that I WANT to look different) would about be it.

In all, I'm really warming up to the idea of a dual era layout. This will (at long last) give me an option to indulge in my TOC19 fetish ON A LAYOUT (not just the workbench) when mood inclines, but I'll also be able to delve into my diesels when that urge is there.

No, it will not be a "funky-fantastic Colorado" layout. BUT... as I learned, pursuing such would have been very frustrating (acquiring the skill sets) and filled with procrastination (because of the need to acquire the skill sets!).

HOWEVER, there was some NEAT stuff that plied the Ozarks. To wit:

You know my penchant for funnel/diamond stacks, right? Well... here's a few pics from the late 1880s that illustrate nicely that there was still a significant amount of diamond stacks running about on the railroads of the Ozarks...

From the late 1880s:





Even though the next photo isn't in the Ozarks, the railroad pictured ran in the Ozarks and this one is dated from the 1890s, yet we're still seeing diamond stacks...



I have more pics I'll share in time. I'm confident there will definitely be ample atmosphere to reward me with many things I like about TOC19, in spite of it not catering to my Colorado appreciation.

SO, Colorado is out. However, I simply need to look back to what originally drew me into TOC19, railroading in the Ozarks, to realize that it CAN cater to many, MANY of the things I like about TOC19.

So I guess, in way, I may be finding my way back home, in a manner of speaking.

This could work!

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 12/30/2018 12:12:12 AM

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deemery
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 12/30/2018 :  10:46:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The big change in the 19th/early 20th century was (of course) in woman's clothing. If you remove the people, you'd be kinda hard pressed to tell the difference between 1870s and 1900s. There would be a lot more overhead wire in towns in the 1900s. But the buildings, roads, horse-drawn transportation, etc, would be pretty similar.

dave


Modeling 1890s (because the voices in my head told me to)

Country: USA | Posts: 7426 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 12/30/2018 :  2:29:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dave:

Fortunately, I already have a start on 19th century figures, as well as mid-20th century figures.

I really think this dual era idea could be pulled off. If nothing else, it will serve to mentally pacify me in that I CAN have TOC19 IF I want it bad enough to accomplish the increase of advanced planning and be willing to expend more effort to make it reality.

For one thing, I will breathe a huge sigh of relief in that the ornate paint schemes that I see other modelers producing in spectacular ways, will NOT have to be accomplished. (Whew!) The locomotives pictured above are pretty plain, actually. Upside: Reflecting such schemes is already "do-able" with my current skill sets.

Al fer now!

Andre



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railman28
Fireman



Posted - 12/30/2018 :  3:42:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Andre, I hope this 2-era works out for you. Personally I find just working in the 19th century is a full plate. Actually just building the engines has proven to be full plate. I think the old saying is true, "you can not slave for two masters. You will hate the one and love the other" or hate both because each will be jealous of the other.

Please prove me wrong.

Bob

Bob



It's only make-believe

Country: USA | Posts: 4945 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 12/30/2018 :  7:26:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rob:

I hear 'ya loud and clear. I don't know if I'll be able to do it, either. I don't intend to go to the lengths you have gone to in order to have locomotives, being quite content with mild kit-bashing of MDC kits and such. I also have 5 RTR Bachmann NT 4-4-0's that can be used as "start with these" fodder.

The layout itself wouldn't require much to accommodate a dual era. Seeing as it appears a layout is going to get built anyway, the extra time would primarily be in having two engine rosters and two rolling stock rosters.

HOWEVER...

What I hope would happen would be when the juices quit flowing for the diesels, I move laterally and mess with TOC19 until the the TOC19 juices dry up... then back to diesels. Historically (for me) the difference being that when a flat spell was hit with a one-theme layout, typically the layout and its supporting cast (equipment, structure, scenery projects, etc) simply sits and gathers dust without anything being done through said flat spell. Thus, instead of the layout/et al being dormant, perhaps some of the "off" time could be spent furthering the other theme of interest for as long as that energy holds for that theme.

Of course, NONE of my schemes 'n things may or may not come to pass... but at least the hope of a dual era layout is better than pitching in the towel and disposing of my TOC19 stuff!

And, yes, it could prove to be that my dual era idea is simply a pacifier to suck on to soften the blow to my "dream" of having a TOC19 Colorado layout that occurred because of my decision to "return to diesels". Only time will tell!


Andre



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masonamerican
Fireman



Posted - 12/31/2018 :  07:22:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a great compromise Andre! Just keep the buildings and what-not easy to change between the eras.

Håkan



Country: Sweden | Posts: 1705 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 12/31/2018 :  07:47:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Andre,

With a little thought I don’t think it would be hard. You want to start with the old buildings, in my opinion. Of course the track comes first.

To me the appeal of what you’re planning is rural Arkansas, seldom modeled.

Mike


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Country: USA | Posts: 4668 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 12/31/2018 :  11:32:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Håkan:

The dual era plan gives me hope for being able to enjoy many of the aspects of TOC19 that originally drew me to TOC19 several decades ago. Aspects that are pretty much a given with TOC19, regardless of venue.

Now, I freely admit that giving up the "Colorado Dream" is a bit tough, but on the other hand, I know that the fear (dread) of trying to create "my" version of Colorado was one of the biggest reasons for the stagnation (and resulting procrastination). I could probably have been able to get up to speed fairly quickly on creating Colorado-ish 3-D scenery. AND, I could probably learn to (eventually) paint acceptable funky-fantastic Colorado backdrops. The problem with the painting part, is that it would take a lot of practice (time) before I could get results that were close to something that wouldn't frustrate me.

Painting Colorado wouldn't have been quite the problem IF I would have started trying to learn how to paint Colorado some 20+ years ago, and stayed with it, painting scenes on canvas often. Instead, starting at 66 years of age (67 in three months!) with a complete layout to build AND a bunch of Colorado backdrop to paint... well... my window of opportunity for an acceptable Colorado layout has (frankly) closed.

In fact, IF I want a functioning non-Colorado "reasonably complete" layout, well, that window is closing also! I need to get busy doing something tangible. In the next five years it will be important to make good progress on all fronts of my modeling.

SO, I went back to diesels in the Ozarks: A region I'm very familiar with (lived in, and currently live close to) and have modeled before.

I intend to try some techniques I've not tried before (photographic backdrops, mainly), but given the generic nature of the Ozark mountains, I don't foresee significant obstructions in the 3 D scenery department, nor the use of commercially available photographic Ozark-type mountain backgrounds.

An Ozark based layout is very "do-able" with my current skill sets. And, as being discussed, seeing that I've reopened the idea of dove-tailing TOC19 along with it as mood inclines, there are no significant modeling obstacles in order to accomplishing that, other than the additional effort required to make it happen.

Mike:

I suspect you're correct, at least I'm banking on you being correct!

Structures (and supporting cast) will be the key to this working. The basic layout will remain unchanged.

Admittedly, I won't be able to do TOC19 true justice, for some elements that are unique to TOC19 will have to be avoided. (Extensive wooden false front business districts, for example. Toothpick trestles, for another example.)

However, the upside is: I get to keep TOC19 as a medium for my modeling.

I think any compromises in the TOC19 "look" department I have to make to accommodate TOC19 on the layout will be worth the trade off.

Ozarks:

Right you are, Mike: The Arkansas Ozarks are seldom modeled, in any medium or era. In regards to prototype history: The Arkansas Ozarks were invaded by rails sort of "late" compared to the eastern parts of the USA. (Or extreme western part: California.)

The first rails to truly penetrate the Arkansas Ozarks was in 1882 via the southward building St. Louis & San Francisco ("Frisco") and the southeastern building Eureka Springs Railway. (Seligman, MO to Eureka Springs, AR.) Aside from the ES Rwy, short lines really didn't start populating the Arkansas Ozarks until toward the end of the 19th century, with the bulk of them being developed in the early 1900's... some as late as 1909 or later! The most rugged of all of them, the "Black Mountain & Eastern", wasn't even STARTED until 1913!

My immediate thought is to model a regional predecessor to my diesel era Kansas City & Gulf. Theorizing that upon expansion, the southward advancing KC&G purchased said TOC19 line in order to reach the Gulf in the 1895-1998 period.

Thus, the "Ozark & Southern", or "Ozark & Arkansas River", or whatever I end up naming it, has been in operation since the early 1880s, and was a plum to be picked when the KC&G started south out of Kansas City. My first thought is that the my Ozark TOC19 line runs from Springfield, MO, down to the Arkansas River. Roughly some 160 miles, via current highways. Thus, the "Ozark Subdivision" of the line would be about 80 miles long, dissecting the line in half. (Okay, I'm off on another tangent, this is best left for another time.)

The practical upside is that my TOC19 stuff will have larger radii curves than was originally envisioned for my Colorado layout, occasioned by the need to visually accommodate the diesel era equipment.

Good heavens, I've typed a novel. I was going to include some prototype pics and discuss some other aspects of modeling the Arkansas Ozarks... but this post has grown WAAAAY too long. Maybe that can be shared at a later time!

All fer now.

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 12/31/2018 11:38:22 AM

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hminky
Fireman



Posted - 01/01/2019 :  12:07:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit hminky's Homepage  Reply with Quote
At the moment at a lull in solid model trains can't generate any excitement.

Back playing with V-Rail now that my Trainz has settled on a version.

Been doing a Trainz version of your MSTS Ozark Northern since I got Trainz in 2009. Your route contained the MKR file so was able to make a DEM for the route in TranzDEM. Now with BaseMapz am able to transfer the track plan to Trainz easily.





Fortunately there is TOC19 equipment and stub switches that work in TANE SP1. Glad I never delete stuff on my hard drives so had a version.





The latest versions killed everything I use.

V-Rail is really big compared to a 5x8.

Happy New Year
Harold




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railman28
Fireman



Posted - 01/01/2019 :  12:56:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very dramatic images. Thanks for sharing them. I have found these "modeling" very useful in the past.

Harold is your guild on improving the electrical pick-up of the Bachmann Americans still available?

Bob


It's only make-believe

Country: USA | Posts: 4945 Go to Top of Page

hminky
Fireman



Posted - 01/01/2019 :  1:01:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit hminky's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by railman28

Very dramatic images. Thanks for sharing them. I have found these "modeling" very useful in the past.

Harold is your guild on improving the electrical pick-up of the Bachmann Americans still available?


All my new stuff is at:

http://www.chainsawjunction.com/1879/

The wipers is at:

http://www.chainsawjunction.com/1879/nt_440/wipers/

Harold



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