People fail to remember the old addage, "You get what you pay for"! Even still, most of the low end stuf is 100% better than it was 2 decades ago! (Especially N-scale)

Russ

I run O and O27 - a lot of my stuff isn't true to detail. What gets me is that so many folks depend of ready-to-run. Where did all the folks go who do conversions, kitbashing, detailing, etc?

Happy Railroading!

Thor - All Gauge Model Railroading Page at http://www.thortrains.net

Ocean County Society of Model Railroaders http://ocsmr.thortrains.com

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We are still out here. Just seem to be a dying breed! In fact, check out the N-scale/beginning with bucks section and see what Robin and Catt can do with cereal boxes. Incredible!

Russ

Tankertoad, I think your on the money. People want quality without paying for it. It's one thing to seach for quality and get a good price. But what you are seeing is a demand for quality at a cheap price and that has never happened. You get what you pay for!

Rusty Stumps

I almost never buy R-T-R (Ohhh, but that Bachmann Shay keeps singing a sweet love song to me... don't know how much longer I can resist!) , but I never buy diesels, either. So for me, it's pretty much assemble, fine tune, add after-market goodies, and so forth.

For me, then, it's pretty much about satisfying an urge to build, to have something somewhat unique, and still have the quality I can afford.

Even so, I can understand the attraction of R-T-R. Sometimes, I think it would be nice just to get it out of the box and run it instead of waiting through weeks or months of construction time.

What I don't understand, though, are those who expect top drawer quality and detailing, but who also do not want to invest anything of themselves in terms of time or money. Where is the "modeling" in that? Who's really the modeler? The buyer or the craftsman who did all the design and mold work?

Like some of you have already noted, you get what you pay for. If someone expects top quality, then he should expect to pay top dollar or build it himself.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm a busy man. I have a railroad to run.



http://homepage.mac.com/michael21/CMS-RR-Co./

This is a theme that reverberates through other hobbies and even business. I can remember my dad lamenting the fall of ham radio. It was his life, both work and hobby. At 16 he had wound his own coils around oatmeal boxes and would sit up to 2 or 3 am to converse through morse code with people around the world. He became a radio officer in the merchant marine. He couldn't stand the new ham operators who wanted "out of the box" instant access.

Which brings me to my stint at Heathkit. Many of you might remember the king of electonic kits. I spent four years at Heath/Zenith as editor of a national computer magazine. This was just as the IBM PC was hitting the market. Re-engineering a computer to be a kit is expensive, never mind that a kit is more expensive to manufacture than a complete finished product. I can remember the President, Bill Johnson, saying that the consumer market was changing. People wanted instant gratification. They didn't sit and put together a stero. They wanted to buy it, take it home, plug it in and have instant music. It was at this time that Heath started into decline never to recover.

There was other things involved, like his comment that Heath only had 50,000 potential customers, which I thought was short sighted. I left shortly after this as I could see where things would go. Anyway the company is still there but a shell of it's former self and only selling kits to the education market.

I don't think model railroading is in decline but the face of the model railroader is changing. they want instant gratification not the joy of creating something with their own hands. So goes the nature of life I guess.

Rusty Stumps




Edited by - Rusty Stumps on 06/18/2002 11:50:13

A distributor was talking to me last week about just this subject - i.e., that people want exact prototype models for basically little or no money. Not gonna happen, people!!! If you want truer prototype, you're gonna have to pay the $$$. Your choice.

And don't complain to the rest of us about your woes ("oh woe is me, this P2K is almost $200CDN"), cause we ain't gonna listen.

rockislandmike

http://www.heatherandmichael.com/recklessandveiled/

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And that folks is why this hobby could die.

If the industry won't listen to their customers, and refuses to deal with change, it will disappear - Period. And if you don't like hearing that, just remember how many companies have gone out of business over the years for the very same reasons. It's business 101.

The RTR concept is here to stay and customers are demanding more. As a business, either you find a way to accommodate them, or someone else will. If no one else will, then this hobby will eventually fall by the wayside and something else will take its place. Afterall, that little box we are all typing into has surely claimed many future modelers.

I'd also say that distributors are one of the big reasons that prices are so high. But that is another debate...



Modeling the Belmar Valley, a fictitious place served by N&W.

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Your last sentence deals partly with why the hobby could be in danger. Kids and new blood... many are worried that the "old farts" can't support the hobby indefinitely and younger folks need to be brough in to keep it active and vibrant. I'm sure this is part of the big push on the "Worlds Greatest Hobby" campaign of late.

Speaking of RTR trends. How about that MDC entry with their $19 list price retreads of their cheap 40' box cars? No metal wheels, not KD clone couplers, just a $5 box car which takes 5 minutes to assemble - preassembled and more than triple the cost. Now there is progress toward filling the demands of the modern RTR railroader!

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I think that the hobby being in danger is linked with what is being perceived as lofty price/quality expectations, because it's coming from the younger modelers. As a "younger" modeler, cost is something I am sensitive to. My disposable income is very low, and I imagine that many of my peers are in the same situation. So cost is a major obstacle, as is time (sorry, I just don't have the time to kitbash everything). If these obsticles are not addressed by the industry, then people in my situation will likely find something else to do.



Modeling the Belmar Valley, a fictitious place served by N&W.

Edited by - BruceF on 06/18/2002 13:53:12

The time issue can certainly be a point of contention for many. I have found that I am able to make the time for whatever is important to me. Although I am retired from the AF, I work 50 hours per week as an auditor, 10 hours per week in my home business, devote a minimum of six hours per week to my church family, spend plenty of time with my wife and daughters (3 of them), and still enjoy my two favorite past times: reading history and model railroading. It is just a matter of prioritizing my life, and not wasting time in front of that cotton pickin' TV, unless my wife and daughters ask me to sit with them and watch a movie.



Don in Orygun City

I think this debate rears its self every so often.

There are many modelers who do not think they have the skills to assemble a kit even if it is fairly basic (ie; Athearn) and there are others who have so many other commitments they do not have the time. Working full time and with some travelling each day often leaves little time so if they can spend it actually running trains then thats what they would rather do. I sometimes leave home at 5.45pm and do not return until 8.15am the following morning but then railroading is a 24/7 job. I myself do not watch hardly any TV, I prefer either reading (I have a stack of modeling / prototype magazines / books to catch up on) or running trains.

As regards cost, if it is RTR then it is going to cost more but I feel that someone somewhere is making something. A lot of production has been moved to the Far East where labor is cheap but prices still seem high although nothing compared to some European models but that is to be expected in a high wage / cost economy.

Brian

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So that means you don't sleep?

You also forgot to account for your weekly RR-L time! With over 400 posts, that has to eat up some time.



Modeling the Belmar Valley, a fictitious place served by N&W.

FYI my comment wasn't meant to downplay RTR or industry change. RTR is becoming quite popular, and that's fine. And every industry needs to change over time, or they will be toast.

My only point was that, to get quality products in just about every industry you can think of, you're gonna have to pay more than you do for the mediocre or less-than-mediocre product. Your choice - decent quality and decent prices, or premium quality and premium prices. But do not expect to get premium quality for low prices.

And that's all I'm gonna say in this thread, because I already feel myself getting antsy, and I don't wanna say something else that might make others upset.

rockislandmike

http://www.heatherandmichael.com/recklessandveiled/