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  • #16
    Rob/Ted:

    "And as long as you enjoy it, Bravo!! It's YOUR railroad"... "It's your railroad and towns so have fun with it!"

    I shall!

    Since I'm outing myself: I also intend there to be Native American's present, too. However, they will be non war-like and they'll be my own tribe I've imagineered: The "Minnitonka". In fact, I think I've figured out a way to make some wrapped in blankets, too.

    It's going to be a while before I will attack the layout proper... but I do hope to have it 100% functional by year's end. I started with an empty room, and built a layout to 100% functionality that is bigger and far more complex in about 6 months. We shall see!

    Andre

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    • #17
      Andre:

      If you are doing Colorado mining check out Chief Ouray (Ute), interesting guy and we stayed in his house in Ouray Colorado when we toured around the mining areas and rode the D&S. Just make sure your miniature citizens pay their taxes to help build that railroad!

      Ted
      "there is nothing in it but cornstalks and beanpoles" A. Lincoln

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Ted!

        The Minnitonka's are my stand in for the Ute. "Chief Ootay" regally guides them! There are many braves, too, such as "Little Stick", "Falling Rock", "Dancing Bear", and more.



        Andre

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        • #19
          It is not historically incorrect to have Native Americans present. The last Indian Wars were fought in the 1920s and period photos of the 1880s-1910s of practically any town in Colorado and Utah will have Indians present somewhere...I recently purchased some photos from a photographer back east who took a nation-wide train trip in the mid-1890s, and every town his special train stopped in between Omaha and Sacramento had natives wrapped in blankets wandering the streets, even on Temple Square in Salt Lake City.

          If you model anywhere west of the Mississippi through the 1920s and don't have at least one Indian on your layout, it's high time you got one!

          Comment


          • #20
            quote:


            Originally posted by OK Hogger



            I also intend there to be Native American's present, too. However, they will be non war-like and they'll be my own tribe I've imagineered: The "Minnitonka". In fact, I think I've figured out a way to make some wrapped in blankets, too.


            Man are you "brave"! I like the idea of inclusion of aboriginals and the Chinese. But how to do it without reinforcing negative stereotypes? After all we want to salute their contribution to the story while at the same time show them the dignity all deserve. Same goes for Hispanics. After all, in most of the "west" they were the first Europeans there.

            Bob
            It's only make-believe

            Comment


            • #21

              Well, first off, I wouldn't use them in a derogatory manner. Further, I refuse to allow the "PC crowd" to interfere with my innocent enjoyment of using such figures, which is one way I celebrate our differences and commemorate their influence in our lives.

              However, to avoid upsetting anyone, (after all, we ARE talking about a society that wants to cancel Dr. Seuss), well, that's easy!...

              I'll post no pictures of my layout once they're in place! Problem solved.

              I sure wouldn't want to cause anyone to wring their hands over my modeling.

              Andre

              Comment


              • #22
                Well said Andre, too bad woke and PC have crept into our hobby world, too. Intellectual honesty is hard to find these days, you've got to be kidding me, really? is uttered constantly around my house.

                I'd be proud to see your layout, Andre. Malcolm Furlow was a favorite of mine, back when America had a sense of humo(u)r, hate to damage any Canadians their dignity, eh?
                Karl Scribner-Curmudgeon

                Cedar Swamp
                SW of Manistique, MI

                AVATAR Image stolen from Model Train Stuff advertisement in my e-mail

                Comment


                • #23
                  Karl:

                  It wasn't my intention at all to raise concerns about me being derogatory in my desire to include representational Native American figures.

                  I am fascinated by Native American's. I enjoy learning about them. A very good friend of mine on the last RR I worked for was 100% Cherokee, as are other friends we have, both Cherokee and Choctaw. (We DO live in Oklahoma, you know!) Anyway, Bobby and I became good friends over the years. He had a great sense of humor and we both had a lot of fun celebrating our differences. After a few years of friendship, Bobby invited my wife and I to a tribal "Stomp Dance*" as a guest of their family. (That is quite an honor, by the way.) SO, for one night, my wife and I were members of the Locust family! We were welcomed with open arms by Bobby's family as well as by the other clans that were represented.

                  * A "Stomp Dance" is very important to the Cherokee tribe (and possibly other Native American tribes). It is NOT to be confused with the theatrical performances seen at Pow Wow's, which are open to the general public. No, a "Stomp Dance" is an important part of Cherokee history. Plus, you're either part of a Cherokee "clan" by birth (there were 7 clans represented at the Stomp Dance we attended), or a guest of a clan member, or you aren't there. Simple as that. Absolutely NO cameras of any type are allowed. A "Stomp Dance" takes place on Sacred Ground. It's ground that has hosted "Stomp Dances" for generations and generations. The Ceremonial Fire that night was ignited by a portion of fire that was transported from the perpetual Ceremonial Fire that the Cherokee's keep burning 24/7 for ceremonial purposes at their tribal Stomp Ground in OK. Even the Fire Tender has certain historical rituals that he performs as he tends the fire. It was fascinating!

                  Anyway, we were fed like kings and Bobby's entire family treated us as one of them, as did any/all other Cherokee tribe members we met that night. During the early part of the evening, each Clan would have its time around the Council Circle and the Ceremonial Fire. There, the Clan Leader would share the oral history of their Clan (as well as general Cherokee oral history) in the native Cherokee tongue. We didn't know what was being said, by my wife and I sat off in the fringe and soaked up the atmosphere of such an important event to the Cherokee!

                  Come night fall, we could hear the sound of the "Shackles*" that the ladies were dawning in preparation for the beginning of the Dances.

                  * "Shackles", as they were called, were made of parched turtle shells in which were placed pebbles inside. These are fastened to leggings that attaches around both calves of the lady. When she would strike her feet to the ground, the "Shackles" give a sharp raspy sound similar to the sound of Mexican maracas. Or, she could not be as forceful and the sound would be softer. The "Shackles" are used to accent and emphasize the dance beat being laid by the drummers.

                  At the appointed time, a Clan Leader goes to the fire circle and stands beside the Ceremonial Fire and calls for that clan. The Drummer (or Drummers) take their place, and the Clan Leader begins a chant and the Drummers set the beat pattern. Simultaneously, the clan members began to form a circular line around the fire and began their stomp dance as the Clan Leader leads. The Leader will chant a phrase and pause, and the dancing clan members will repeat the refrain, and so forth. All of this is in rhythm with the drum beat and has accents and offbeats by the ladies with their "Shackles". This is all done in the native Cherokee tongue.

                  It was amazing! The wife and I sat in the shadows until after midnight watching the various clans as they engaged in their Stomp Dances. It truly was like seeing through a window to the past that was centuries ago!

                  It is a "given" that I will have Native American's on my layout. However, I decided to create my own tribe (seeing as I don't know a lot about the history or culture of the Ute's, etc, and would not want to portray them incorrectly) and go with that. Thus the "Minnitonka" tribe was born! I will indeed enjoy creating fictional characters (a Chief, braves, etc) for the Minnitonka. Oh, and believe it or not, Native American's (at least the Cherokee's and Choctaw's I know) can have very good sense of humors and are great people to be around.

                  So... NOW you know... the RESSSST of the story!

                  (Said in my best Paul Harvey voice.)

                  Andre

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Andre,

                    Thanks for sharing your experience. I can tell by your detailed recount that it meant a lot.

                    Look forward to seeing your layouts progression.

                    Scott

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Andre, thank you for your sharing your experience. The builder,of,our cabin in the woods on Lake Michigan is of Indian heritage and we’ve become quite close to him and his family and given the opportunity to enjoy the respect and reverence for nature and all it offers. He’s included us in numerous experiences where he’s shared with us and widened our appreciation of the land around us. How exciting it must have been to have been afforded,the opportunity to join your friend Bobby and his family in their ceremonies.
                      Karl Scribner-Curmudgeon

                      Cedar Swamp
                      SW of Manistique, MI

                      AVATAR Image stolen from Model Train Stuff advertisement in my e-mail

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Karl:

                        It was indeed. On the RR Bobby and I had a ball messing with each other. (Yes, there were times we had serious chats.) He was a great guy. Lost touch with him after he left the RR.

                        We (wife and I) also have friends of Choctaw ancestry. Same deal: Great people. Very warm and genuine. One, since passed, named Betty Earls, was full blood Choctaw. She was a wonderful lady that had a very sharp witted humor about her. She raised some mighty good kids (and some grand kids) that are still our friends to this day.


                        Andre

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Andre,

                          I don't think you have to worry about being derogatory if your Indian figures are not caricatures and you don't put them in stereotype situations.

                          Mike
                          _________________________________________________

                          Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. James Baldwin

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            For anybody looking for 19th century mining/working figures I'd strongly suggest looking at the Pegasus Hobbies California Gold Miners set. I've just received some packs in 1/48 scale and they are great. They are available in HO too and a good deal. I found my sets on Amazon for around $9, they come with 14 figures, 2 pack mules, and 5 pieces of equipment such as various gold rocker boxes and a mine cart. They would be a great base for kitbashing all kinds of workers and some come with separate arms (at least in O scale) so you can customize poses. The same company also makes a couple of sets of Mission Indians, Padres, Cowboys etc. They don't really market to the model railroad crowd as far as I have seen but their figures have a LOT of potential.

                            Ted
                            "there is nothing in it but cornstalks and beanpoles" A. Lincoln

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hi Ted!

                              Sounds interesting. I wasn't able to find any HO figure sets like you mention at the Pegasus website: https://pegasushobbies.net/catalog/

                              If you know how to navigate their site and what key words to use ("HO figures" resulted in zero finds) Would you be willing to link directly?

                              Thanks.

                              Andre

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Andre:

                                Try searching Pegasus Hobbies item #7050, I guess they are actually 1/72 figures. I see them on "that auction site" right now for $9.99 plus you get 28 figures and FOUR mules! I feel mule envy now!

                                Ted
                                "there is nothing in it but cornstalks and beanpoles" A. Lincoln

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