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2-6-6-2 Undecorated Manuta Steamer.

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  • #16
    Hi James,

    quote:


    Originally posted by jbvb


    This engine comes across as a tutorial for 'Hitch in its git-along', sub-category 'side-rods & valve gear'.



    I'm looking at addressing this problem after the pick-up wipers and wiring plugs are installed.

    quote:


    The only topics left to address are 'bad driver quartering' and 'side rods don't match frame'. So this is shaping up as a good lesson for anyone with a brass or die-cast loco that isn't living up to its potential.



    Since the wheel sideways play was so large I took the cover plate off the bottom holding the axles in place to see what could be done. I see two possible ways of fixing this. One would be to make new axles bearing's slightly wider than the original's. This would require the use of machine tools to make. Something a lot of modelers don't possess. Second would be to use a washer between wheel and frame. This would necessitate the removal of a wheel. When assembling this would then address wheel quartering problem and the need for a quartering jig. Now you can see why they use two side rods to link all the wheels together. With enough slop in the assembly they didn't have to worry about precision.

    I'm going try to attempt this up-grade so every modeler with hand tools can do this. It may not be possible, but I'll see what I can do.

    Bernd

    Hi James,
    New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds

    Comment


    • #17
      I can remember some years ago putting together all those tiny little pieces with rivets. That was quite a task. I've not had my current "RTR" loco out of the box in some time. I'll have to give it a look.
      Karl Scribner-Curmudgeon

      Cedar Swamp
      SW of Manistique, MI

      AVATAR Image stolen from Model Train Stuff advertisement in my e-mail

      Comment


      • #18
        Bernd, I'm wondering if that slop in the drivers and all the rods and linkage is deliberate to allow the locos to handle the tight radius curves of many home layouts. This is made for the mass market, not to the more demanding modeler like you see hanging out around here.

        It's going to be interesting to see how you solve these problems.

        George
        The sky is not my limit, it's my playground.

        Comment


        • #19
          quote:


          Originally posted by George D


          Bernd, I'm wondering if that slop in the drivers and all the rods and linkage is deliberate to allow the locos to handle the tight radius curves of many home layouts. This is made for the mass market, not to the more demanding modeler like you see hanging out around here.

          It's going to be interesting to see how you solve these problems.

          George


          George,

          Had a little extra time this morning before having to run some errands so I dug a little deeper into the project. Yes, I was thinking the same thing that the slop is designed in, but isn't that what the blind drivers are for? I guess I'll find out. BTW, what is the minimum radius that this engine can handle?

          Ok, here's something interesting to contemplate. Remember the old saying you can't fit a square peg into a round hole? Well, Mantua has reversed that saying, you "CAN" fit a round peg in a square hole. Here's proof.



          Note that the holes in the frame are square and the screw goes into the square hole. This is a manufacturing technique used to save money. Cast the square hole and screw in the screw. Saves on drilling and tapping. Ingenious isn't it". Lawn mowers are assembled like that. Makes it tough to rebuild. Plus the screw holes are easy to strip out if to much pressure is applied to the screw. I'll show a way to fix that problem.


          Here's another tid-bit of information. Those screws/bolts with the hex heads that hold the rods on are always hard to get on and off. I used to use a pair of pliers and succeeded in rounding the bolt head.



          Here's a simple tool to use so you won't ruin those bolts.



          It's a 4-40 hex bolt. Fits right over the bolt head. Now you can use a pair of pliers and not ruin the hex head bolt. You'll only ruin the threads on the bolt & that's OK.





          Now, I discovered that the bolt is actually .093" hex stock turned down with an 0-80 thread. I would have thought being made in China that it would have been metric. The axles are 1/8" in diameter. This will make quartering easier and making some washers to get the side ways slop out.

          This technique will also work if you have metric threads and metric hex head bolts. Just measure across the flats of the bolt head and get a metric cap screw that will fit. Good place to get these types of screws is McMaster-Carr & Micro-Fasteners. Two of my vendors I use.

          That'll wrap it up for now. Have to run those errands now. Be back on later today to answer any questions.

          Bernd
          New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds

          Comment


          • #20
            Small English socket wrenches are available from Walthers, small metric sockets are included in the more complete sets of 'modeler's screwdrivers' in the plastic cases with slide-open fronts.
            James

            Comment


            • #21
              Now I've used a lot of things that were not intended for their use, BUT NEVER, thought that that hex head bolt would of worked. Who thinks of these things??? I've always prided myself for, and thought, I could find a solution to things, but this takes the cake. I guess it is one of those things "find the forest through the trees":

              Also, as far as curves/radius goes, the Mantua is made to run on 18" radius curves, but would look better on larger 22" curves and runs better as well.

              Here is a link to information; Mantua vs. Bachmann 2-6-6-2's; http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-u...c=12028.0;wap2


              Louis L&R Western Railroad
              Pacific Northwest Logging in the East Coast

              Comment


              • #22
                quote:


                Originally posted by jbvb


                Small English socket wrenches are available from Walthers, small metric sockets are included in the more complete sets of 'modeler's screwdrivers' in the plastic cases with slide-open fronts.


                You'd think a guy with machine tools on his bench would own set of those.

                Bernd
                New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds

                Comment


                • #23
                  quote:


                  Originally posted by desertdrover


                  Now I've used a lot of things that were not intended for their use, BUT NEVER, thought that that hex head bolt would of worked. Who thinks of these things??? I've always prided myself for, and thought, I could find a solution to things, but this takes the cake. I guess it is one of those things "find the forest through the trees":


                  I can't take credit for that one. I saw that way back in one of the modeling magazines. Works in a pinch and is cheaper than a whole set of wrenches that I would have to keep looking for under other tools piled up on the bench.

                  quote:



                  Also, as far as curves/radius goes, the Mantua is made to run on 18" radius curves, but would look better on larger 22" curves and runs better as well.

                  Here is a link to information; Mantua vs. Bachmann 2-6-6-2's; http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-u...c=12028.0;wap2



                  Interesting read. I see they had derailing problems on the back engine. I'd be willing to bet that the spring that pushes down on the front engine took weight of the front axle of the rear engine. That's something else to look into toward the end of this up grade.

                  Bernd
                  New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    quote:


                    Originally posted by George D


                    Bernd, I'm wondering if that slop in the drivers and all the rods and linkage is deliberate to allow the locos to handle the tight radius curves of many home layouts. This is made for the mass market, not to the more demanding modeler like you see hanging out around here.

                    It's going to be interesting to see how you solve these problems.

                    George



                    With blind drivers in the middle, wouldn't track radius make very little difference? Too much slop, in my opinion, is just plain sloppy workmanship!

                    Having received two bad locos in a row, then having five other steamers needing attention, to me, it just seemed the logical thing to do was to return these locos! Could I have made sows ears into silk purses? I have no doubt that I could have. I just did not want to do it. Bernd, thanks for pointing out how much more is wrong with these models, it makes my choice seem the right one to make, at least for me.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I would be interested in knowing if these locos which were actually made by the real live Mantua Company which ceased production in 2001 and where bought out by Model Power, had these same problems? Also, where the kits produced by Mantua where difficult to get to run correctly? I built one Mantua loco, their little 0-4-0 Yard Goat from a kit, it had Stephenson Valve Gear, so the mechanism was much simpler than the Walschaerts valve gear used on the 2-6-6-2T loco. I found my kit built loco was a great running loco, without problems.

                      Here is a little history on Mantua: http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/mantuaresource/id10.html

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        quote:


                        Originally posted by NP2626


                        With blind drivers in the middle, wouldn't track radius make very little difference? Too much slop, in my opinion, is just plain sloppy workmanship!



                        I would think so. That's the reason for something like a 2-6-0, 2-8-0, or 2-10-0 for blind drivers, even on the prototype. I can see more, lets called it side ways clearance, in the drivers to accommodate smaller radius curves. There has to be a limit to side ways clearance because you'll start to have interference with the side rods, as is evidence on this model.

                        By the way. I noticed on my model that the wheels with the flanges showed wear on them and the blind drivers didn't show any at all. I'll take a pic and post when I have more time.

                        quote:



                        Having received two bad locos in a row, then having five other steamers needing attention, to me, it just seemed the logical thing to do was to return these locos! Could I have made sows ears into silk purses? I have no doubt that I could have. I just did not want to do it. Bernd, thanks for pointing out how much more is wrong with these models, it makes my choice seem the right one to make, at least for me.



                        I can understand not wanting to have to make a silk purse out of a sows ear when that sow's ear costs over $100. Very understandable when all you would like to do is run model railroad. Not faulting you for your complaint.

                        My interest in the hobby is more on taking on a challenge like this engine and seeing what I can do to improve it's performance and then share with others what can be done if they care to do it.

                        Bernd
                        New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          quote:


                          Originally posted by NP2626


                          I would be interested in knowing if these locos which were actually made by the real live Mantua Company which ceased production in 2001 and where bought out by Model Power, had these same problems? Also, where the kits produced by Mantua where difficult to get to run correctly? I built one Mantua loco, their little 0-4-0 Yard Goat from a kit, it had Stephenson Valve Gear, so the mechanism was much simpler than the Walschaerts valve gear used on the 2-6-6-2T loco. I found my kit built loco was a great running loco, without problems.

                          Here is a little history on Mantua: http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/mantuaresource/id10.html


                          A closer examination shows the rivets that hold the rods together are inconsistent in there mounting. In other words when they flattened the one end. Definitely a quality control problem. I'll have to take a closer look at some of the my other steamers by AHM and early Mantua.

                          Bernd
                          New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            quote:


                            Originally posted by Bernd


                            Since the wheel sideways play was so large I took the cover plate off the bottom holding the axles in place to see what could be done. I see two possible ways of fixing this. One would be to make new axles bearing's slightly wider than the original's. This would require the use of machine tools to make. Something a lot of modelers don't possess. Second would be to use a washer between wheel and frame. This would necessitate the removal of a wheel. When assembling this would then address wheel quartering problem and the need for a quartering jig.


                            Hi Bernd,

                            I hada loco with a lot of side play in the axles, which was very aggravating because it meant the couplers didnt't always line up when switching.

                            I tightened it up by adding washers between the frame and front and rear drivers. I used the fibre washers madeby Kadee to shim up the trucks to adjust coupler height for one loco. I found that by making a slit in the washer it was flexible enough to pop over the axle without taking the wheel off one side. It stayed on fine once it was there.

                            On a Roco locomotive with 2mm axles I cut the washers out of styrene with 1/8th of the circle cut out to make getting them over the axle possible. I layered a few made from 0.25mm/10thou and 0.5mm/20thou plastic. I never found a problem with the washers coming loose but you could line two up with the cuts on opposing sides of the circle and glue them together on the axle.
                            Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=52273

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hi Neil,

                              Good suggestions for the washers for modelers without machine tools.

                              Since I have a Sherline lathe and a Sherline CNC mill I usually take the DYI route. I'm going to make my own washers from black acetal rod. I know it means taking one wheel off and having to re-quarter the drivers, but I think I remember reading that some of these engines aren't quartered properly to begin with. I was also thinking of doing all the axles.

                              Thanks for chiming in on the subject. The more tips disseminated the better.

                              Bernd
                              New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Sounds good Bernd, I did/do not have a quartering jig and didn't want to mess about setting it by trial and error on the Roco locomotive because it runs like a watch; with something like this re-quartering sounds like an excellent idea. Slitting the washers worked fine even if it isn't the most elegant solution [:P]

                                I was also thinking you might want to add a washer behind the connecting rod on the rear driver sets to keep them in line. The centre-to-front-drivers rod is pushing the rear-to-centre-drivers rod out of line on the centre axle and I think it would improve the apearance (and maybe running) if they were all parrallel.
                                Built a waterfront HO layout in Ireland http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22161 but now making a start in On30 in Australia http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=52273

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