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  • #91
    Hey Brad,

    Seems like my server is not coming back online, so I had to move the images. I relinked all of them except the first one since I can't edit that post. I also finally got over the flu and went back to work, so all is good down here again. So I guess we're back in business.

    I added the elevations you sent and everything looks good. The grades weren't as bad as you had thought. I also like the over lapping siding idea, it's a lot more useful at that length.

    Take care,

    Rob.


    Comment


    • #92
      Hi Brad/Rob,

      All shaping up quite nicely. This latest plan seems to work reasonably well. Not overly track heavy, and simple enough to match the thinking of a backwoods line. Only a couple of small comments...

      I like the addition of the extra passing siding up at Dolly Varden mine, but wondering what the actual length of track is between the bridge and that first turnout? Thinking it may be better to slide the bridge to the left(or shorten slightly), so that allows a bit more rail to switch this area in without trundling out onto the bridge to do so. Might look nice tom run back and forth on the bridge, but not sure how practical or prototypical this sort of operation is/was. If there is enough room to maybe move out a loco and say two cars before the start of the bridge, then perhaps ok, and also makes a switching challenge with a shunt limit prior to the bridge.

      The other thing I was wondering Brad, is the needs of the staging area. Just looking at the number of industries, and the mines/logging sites, there almost seems enough yarding around the actual layout to accommodate what would be expected to be on the line, without too much demand for hidden sections. If you have a larger collection of locos and rolling stock that would be stored in the staging section for a big mix of what runs up and down the line, that's fine, but just looking at the current plan and thinking through what some of the operating sequences and runs might be, a) if there is too much stock running around the line, it might look overly full, and b) the staging almost feels up the wrong end of the line for where there might be demand for rolling stock variety. That is, you would only expect to see mining and logging equipment running on the second half of the line (except perhaps the odd supply boxcar or flatcar).

      Cheers,

      Dan Pickard
      http://www.austnarrowgaugeconvention.com/

      Comment


      • #93
        Rob,

        Good to hear your up and about. Did you dig out or has the snow started melting a little?

        Yes on the grades I was just measuring point to point, not along the true centreline thru the arc's / radius. This would leave me shorter and a greater grade.

        Good to see the real numbers.

        One thing I was toying with was to flip the second industry spur 180 degrees (points facing the first industry spur) and running out the second spur towards the turntable. This would make this spur long enough for two industries, or one industry and a team track. This worth spice up the switching a little bit. I will sketch this out tomorrow, if time permits. This week I am in Montreal for work and depending on the internet security at the customer I may be blacked out till I get back to the hotel at night.
        Essex Northern Railroad ~ “Emperor of the North”

        Comment


        • #94
          Brad, First time checking in..[^] Didn't know you were building a layout? I thought you only had room for your shelf layout? Plans for the new layout are looking good
          Were we go one We go All

          Comment


          • #95
            Dan,

            Rob could check those dimensions and reply. I would not hurt anything to shorten or slide the bridge CW down-grade a little.

            As for the staging, it was going to be a simple three track affair. One to hold the daily passenger service in and out of the valley to the next town over the mountain. The other will be the freight service. The three tracks will split from the one inside the next room. The three will connect to a turntable. The one open track will be the run around for the turned locomotive. Still playing with this. I want a connection to justify a little extra traffic but nothing that strips the backwoods feel. This is my "what if", but I do not want it to overpower the original essence.

            This is I guess when we need to start thinking train makeup and tasks. This is the other reason to do this online. I have not read much on train / timetable creation, and I hope to get advice and guidance thru this forum.

            After Rob gets some of the elevations firmed up (me not changing my mind) I was going to start thinking of how the construction of the bench work would be created. Do we shelve mount, floor mount, or a hybrid to fit with the design. Permanent, modular, hybrid .....

            It's getting more interesting by the week.
            Essex Northern Railroad ~ “Emperor of the North”

            Comment


            • #96
              Craig,

              In my office I am building a shelf display. This is to shake out the cobwebs. This railroad is going to be the retirement entertainment. Going to do the design and the heavy work now. Plan to slide into this gracefully, with a solid plan, and a defined goal. Keeping the fingers crossed. I had visited Alan (LK&O) in Lapeer, Mi. After seeing his work in person, reading thru his blog, I believe the planning is key. Work out all the "what ifs" before the sawdust flies.
              Essex Northern Railroad ~ “Emperor of the North”

              Comment


              • #97
                quote:


                Originally posted by BMW


                Rob,

                Good to hear your up and about. Did you dig out or has the snow started melting a little?

                Yes on the grades I was just measuring point to point, not along the true centreline thru the arc's / radius. This would leave me shorter and a greater grade.

                Good to see the real numbers.

                One thing I was toying with was to flip the second industry spur 180 degrees (points facing the first industry spur) and running out the second spur towards the turntable. This would make this spur long enough for two industries, or one industry and a team track. This worth spice up the switching a little bit. I will sketch this out tomorrow, if time permits. This week I am in Montreal for work and depending on the internet security at the customer I may be blacked out till I get back to the hotel at night.


                Hi Brad,

                The weather warmed up a lot over the last week and the snow finally started melting last Friday. We had received 60mm of freezing rain and 35cms of snow over a 3 day period, so now I am dealing with some flooding in my basement since Sunday morning. The sump pump is keeping up, so I don't expect any major problems.

                As for this version, I flipped the turnout, moved the industry towards the turntable and added a new team track. This would be more flexible than adding another actually industry and it will also prevent that area from getting too crowded. I also shortened the curved trestle coming into Dolly Varden per Dan's observation, which I think would be a good idea as well.

                Since you're now turning your thoughts towards operations, I thought we should at least talk about that before finalizing the plan, just to make sure the design works the way you see it. I will take a stab at the first draft of a timetable and also start on a simple traffic generator for you. Once we know how much traffic the layout can generate and get a better idea for the trains you want to run, we can finalize the design and know it will work the way you intended.

                I had a look at Google maps, and the only other "real" town over the mountain seems to be Stewart, BC (population of 10,000 prior to World War I, but reduced to 494 by 2011) which is about 25 miles to the north of Alice Arm on the Portland Canal. I'm not sure what your premise will be for expanding northward, but I like to listen to tall tales, so please enlighten me.

                Take care,

                Rob.


                Comment


                • #98
                  Hi Brad,

                  Here's the first draft of a timetable in the style of one from the period you're modeling.

                  Since I live in a former mining town, I know back in the 1920s when the coal mines were operating, the train's schedules were always planned around the change in shifts at the mines, so I based the times on that assumption.

                  I don't think you should use any train numbers, since (in my view) that would be more in line with the feel of a small operation that you're trying to preserve. So using the terms "Morning Train" and "Afternoon Train" will no doubt be sufficient for your purposes.

                  You will also notice that you will not need a lot of equipment to model the timetable. In fact, the same equipment can be used for all four scheduled trains, which is also more in line with a small operation.

                  I see all these trains as being mixed and will handle both the passenger and the non-ore and non-logging traffic on the line. Your ore and logging trains will operate as extras and I see 1 ore train for each mine and 1 logging train. (I still have yet to get an answer to where the logging trains are going? Do we need staging for them?)

                  Take care,

                  Rob.


                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Hi Brad,

                    Here's my first attempt at setting up a traffic generator for the layout and I will send you the spreadsheet to play with, if you want. The spread sheet is based on the work of Mike Rose (with additions by Dave Husman) at this URL:

                    http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/6795

                    I think Mike's traffic generator is a great place to start for anyone wanting to add more realistic operations to a layout, and would be a great foundation whether you use car cards or switch lists. Basically, the spreadsheet will show what work needs to be done that day, based on the numbers you enter for the frequency of deliveries to an industry.

                    By adding multiple cars for a single industry using several different frequency values, you can greatly vary the number of cars delivered to an industry each day so some days will see light traffic levels, while others will be heavy. By putting in very small values for the frequency number, you can also generator traffic for deliveries that very rarely happen.

                    It is very flexible and easy to modify, while making traffic patterns random, but still easy to tailor to a level your layout can support. And at the end of the day, the only thing that must be updated is whether a car has been spotted, or not. The spread sheet doesn't track car numbers, since it only represents traffic, but those can be done directly on a switch list (if needed).

                    I broke down the work to be done on the layout into 7 types of jobs as follows:

                    Local work at Alice Arm: This would include all industries in Alice Arm and at Dolly Varden House, but would not include ore shipments to the bunker.

                    Dolly Varden Mine Run: This would include all ore traffic between Dolly Varden Mine and the storage track at Alice Arm. Trains will pick up the required empties at the storage tracks at Alice Arm, go to Dolly Varden and return. I wouldn't include any other freight traffic (except maybe explosives) on these trains.

                    Wolf Mine Run: This would include all ore traffic between Wolf Mine and the storage track at Alice Arm. Trains will pick up the required empties at the storage tracks at Alice Arm, go to Wolf Mine and return. I wouldn't include any other freight traffic (except maybe explosives) on these trains.

                    Ore Dump: This would include all ore traffic between the storage tracks at Alice Arm and the ore bunker. Using the live loads, these trains will be used to empty the ore cars and set the stage for the next session by returning the empties to the storage tracks.

                    Mixed Morning Train: This would include miners going to work from Alice Arm to both Dolly Varden and Wolf Mines. On the south bound trip, this train would handle all freight traffic between Wolf Mine and Alice Arm.

                    Mixed Afternoon Train: On the northbound trip, this train would handle all freight traffic (except explosives) between Alice Arm and Wolf Mine. On the return trip, this train would carry miners returning from work at both Dolly Varden and Wolf Mines to Alice Arm.

                    Logging Train: Handle all log traffic to/from the logging spur. Still need the details on where these trains are going with the logs.

                    You can see my notes directly on the worksheet which will make it easier to follow along with the information generated. I also added 2 industries that we don't have on the layout; a freight house at Alice Arms and a warehouse at Dolly Varden. Should we add these?

                    Thoughts? Anyone?

                    Take care,

                    Rob.


                    Comment


                    • Hi Brad,

                      Here is my first attempt at designing a switch list for the layout. I kept the design simple and combined both a switch list and Conductor's report on one form. Since all cars will be home owned, I didn't allow separate columns for the car's initials and the number, but recording the car number alone should be enough to identify it. Although the other details in the header would be optional, I left the space if you wanted that information recorded.

                      Take care,

                      Rob.


                      Comment


                      • Hi Brad,

                        Here is my first attempt at designing a waybill for the layout. As with all other forms, I kept the design for this very simple as well. Because most shipments on the line will be the expense of the company, you would assume there is not a lot of need for waybills since you won't be billing yourself. However, there is a need to keep track of all shipments and where they are going, even if no one is being billed for them, so these forms can still be used.

                        I'm not sure if you're going to use car cards, or if you're considering a more authentic look and feel for your paper work. I actually think a 4-cycle car card system might be over kill for the layout and I would consider using these waybills instead. Of course they would be hand written and could be either thrown away after every session, or filed and reused for similar movements in later sessions.

                        I would run the traffic generator spread sheet before a session then fill out the waybills to match the movements required. You would also have to fill out an empty car slip (see below) for all empties to be picked up and any empties that must be distributed for loading along the line.

                        Then at the beginning of the session, the conductor of each train would be handed the required waybills and the empty slips. From those forms, the Conductor can then make a hand written switch list.

                        Take care,

                        Rob.

                        Way-Bill:




                        Empty Car Slip:




                        Bad Order Slip:




                        Mine Block:




                        Form 19 (Train Order):


                        Comment


                        • Rob,

                          Wow, lots of information to take in. Like I said before, this part of planning I have yet to do the correct research on, so I am listening to what Dan and your shelf have to say.

                          Can you add the station points to the layout (with a diamond or leader line) and adjust as we go. This will keep my positions focused and try to workout things as you present them.

                          Well off to work. Will read further tonight.
                          Essex Northern Railroad ~ “Emperor of the North”

                          Comment


                          • quote:


                            Originally posted by BMW


                            Rob,

                            Wow, lots of information to take in. Like I said before, this part of planning I have yet to do the correct research on, so I am listening to what Dan and your shelf have to say.

                            Can you add the station points to the layout (with a diamond or leader line) and adjust as we go. This will keep my positions focused and try to workout things as you present them.

                            Well off to work. Will read further tonight.


                            Hi Brad,

                            Developing a working Timetable on a computer alone will probably not work as intended. While I do think what's there is a start, there is just no way the entire TT can be represented on the layout, so some stations will have to be left "un-modeled".

                            Although you can play with the times on a TT to your hearts content, I think the best (and maybe only) way to do it when the mainline is in place and you can actually time a train (at prototypical speed) and record times along the line. Your choice of fast clock speed will be determined by those numbers.

                            I was just presenting my premise and ideas for developing a TT for the layout based on shift changes at the mines and using 4 scheduled trains to see if you agreed with my thinking or not.

                            As for the rest of it, I know you have operated on a few layouts and no doubt used different styles of operating. Since we didn't really get into any details about that, I am not even sure what you would like to see on your layout.

                            I have been tweaking the traffic generator and I am already starting to see some issues that could arise, but I need more details on what you want/plan before proceeding.

                            The biggest issue that comes up so far is that we might not have enough capacity at the wharf to deal with all the incoming/out going traffic. I am not sure if your plan for the north staging will deal with this or not.

                            Take care,

                            Rob.

                            Comment


                            • Rob,

                              OK, I think then I need a reset of sorts. Let's get back to the issue and solution process we were working with earlier. For the logs I was thinking bringing them down to the Alice yard, to one of the industries or team track. Another would be down to the dock for shipment by ship out to where ever.

                              The train grouping ideas I like. If a few more drops or double industries on existing spurs help I'm up for that. Remember, this railroad resurrected the DVRR and is now turning a slight profit, the town is booming again ...etc. we could even add a little more density (not much) to the town end to justify what we need, or drop out what does not function at all.

                              Let me know what you need in point form, and I will answer to the best I can.

                              Sun is shining and the SRT comes out today. A little maintenance and my 400hp Neon is back doing what it does best.

                              PS, can you send the last version in DWG format, via email?
                              Essex Northern Railroad ~ “Emperor of the North”

                              Comment


                              • quote:


                                Originally posted by BMW


                                Rob,

                                OK, I think then I need a reset of sorts. Let's get back to the issue and solution process we were working with earlier. For the logs I was thinking bringing them down to the Alice yard, to one of the industries or team track. Another would be down to the dock for shipment by ship out to where ever.

                                The train grouping ideas I like. If a few more drops or double industries on existing spurs help I'm up for that. Remember, this railroad resurrected the DVRR and is now turning a slight profit, the town is booming again ...etc. we could even add a little more density (not much) to the town end to justify what we need, or drop out what does not function at all.

                                Let me know what you need in point form, and I will answer to the best I can.

                                Sun is shining and the SRT comes out today. A little maintenance and my 400hp Neon is back doing what it does best.

                                PS, can you send the last version in DWG format, via email?


                                Hi Brad,

                                ( The DWG should be in your mail box. )

                                I went thru everything and these are the questions that stand out right now:

                                Are you OK with just the added team track in Alice Arm? Or will I change that to an actual industry/structure?

                                Are you OK with the shortened curved trestle coming into Dolly Varden per Dan's observation?

                                The first draft of my timetable only included a scheduled morning and afternoon mixed train between Alice Arm and Wolf mine. Is that enough?

                                Do you want to use train numbers in the timetable?

                                What was/is your premise for expanding northward?

                                Will you go to Stewart, BC? Or are you going to use a fictional town for staging?

                                Are we also scheduling 2 more trains (1 freight, 1 passenger) to staging?

                                Will your logging and ore trains operate as extras on the line?

                                Do you want me to continue to explose the traffic generator spread sheet? Or are you planning something else for generating traffic?

                                Is one of the industries in Alice Arm the freight house? If not, will I add one?

                                Do you know what type of industies the unspecified ones will be?

                                Should I add a mining warehouse to the Dolly Varden Mine?

                                Will you being using switch lists?

                                Will you being using hand written Waybills? Car Cards? Or something else?

                                What are your thoughts on dispathcing trains?

                                Will you be using train orders?

                                Take care,

                                Rob.

                                Comment

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