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  • #91
    Bruce,

    Thought I'd check in and make sure this forum is still alive as the last entry is from 2014 I believe.

    Cars will be my 7-th certificate and I am starting with bated breath. I found the Civil and Scenery forum exceedingly useful and hope to make use the of the somewhat older data here.

    First question - where to people go to get good dimensional data for a passenger car. Might as well start with the toughest Car to build

    thanks

    Joe Brann

    Orlando, FL

    Comment

    • #92
      Joe, with two exceptions, my cars were narrow gauge and I found the Carstens' book "Slim Gauge Cars" helpful in that regard.
      Bruce

      Comment

      • #93
        MR, RMC and the defunct Mainline Modeler magazine all have passenger car plans, though many are riveted or corrugated steel, which many find more difficult to scratchbuild than wood cars. Mainline Modeler and RMC both published books collecting plans and articles from many issues. If you're following a particular prototype, its historical society may have published plans, or a 'Passenger Car Diagram Book'. The latter usually give enough dimensions to work out the details, and sometimes give manufacturer and model for the brake gear, A/C, heat etc.
        James

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        • #94
          “The American Railroad Passenger Car” by John H. White Jr. has hundreds of car plans and photos from various railroad industry magazines. They are not to any particular scale and he doesn’t always include dimensions but you could go to the original sources. Many are scanned and online.

          Mike
          _________________________________________________

          Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. James Baldwin

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          • #95
            Check out the Train Shed Cyclopedia volumes on Passenger cars. Some are available new on Amazon (reprints) or on eBay.

            Jim
            Take the red pill

            Comment

            • #96
              I was browsing this topic and noticed a comment from back in 2009 that a "Drover's Caboose" is an acceptable "passenge car". Has anybody recently built a Drover's Caboose and had it successfully merit judged? Since in general cabooses carry people does that infer that any caboose counts as a passenger car?

              Joe Brann

              Orlando, FL

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              • #97
                Joe,

                This is a direct quote from the NMRA web page, https://www.nmra.org/cars:

                "Passenger cars" include anything that would normally be found in a regular scheduled passenger train including baggage cars, express reefers, business cars, or other passenger carrying cars like drover's cabooses."

                I have not started on cars, myself. But, it is my understanding that a regular caboose will not satisfy the passenger car requirement. But, a drover caboose will, since it carries passengers.

                Chuck

                Comment

                • #98
                  Prototype photo - when is it needed?

                  I'm trying to get my thoughts organized as I start on the cars certificate and am uncertain when good prototype photo(s) are needed. They most certainly are needed for merit judging i.e. the conformity points. But if I just do a well detailed scratch built car do I need a prototype photo to go with that car. Case in point - I need a reacher car for loading my car float. So that makes a good candidate for one of the eight cars. However I believe RRs just used whatever piece of rolling stock (flat cars likely preferred) they had that was not road worthy and converted that car into reacher service. As such I doubt that there are standards for reacher cars.

                  Joe Brann

                  Orlando, FL

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                  • #99
                    Joe,

                    It’s always a good idea to have a photo or plans. The exception might be if the piece of rolling stock is so commonplace that the judges can see that you followed prototype practice. But if that’s the case, why not provide a photo? If you do an unusual car or one with out of the ordinary features you definitely want to document with plans or photo.

                    I saw a rendering of a reach car just a few days ago, but it was from the late 1800’s. Nevertheless such cars existed. How widely they were used I don’t know. If I were to enter a reach car in a contest I would feel that I should document conformity with a photo or plans of actual cars. You want to make the judges confident that the model they are looking at has the features that make it what you say it is.

                    Mike
                    _________________________________________________

                    Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. James Baldwin

                    Comment

                    • #100
                      Mike,

                      Thanks for the reply. I have an old Westerfield kit and one of those wonderful McKean Master Series kits (i.e the ones with the red and white candy stripes on the end)that I would like to build and detail. Is it necessary that I search the Internet and try to find photos of the exact cars that the kits depict?

                      Joe Brann

                      Orlando, FL

                      Comment

                      • #101
                        Joe,

                        I confess almost total ignorance regarding kits and merit judging. I cannot recall judging kit-built rolling stock. However, I expect it helps on conformity to go the extra mile of having a photo and building your car to match the photo in details. You especially want to replicate details that distinguish the prototype from similar cars. If you alter or add details it will help your score in other areas.

                        Mike
                        _________________________________________________

                        Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. James Baldwin

                        Comment

                        • #102
                          Kit built cars rarely get 87 1/2 points. Part of the issue is that the kit manufacturer gets the points for scratchbuilding and researching.

                          Having said that, if you add enough of your own detail, especially if scratch built by you, it may squeeze out enough points.

                          Keep in mind, construction, finish and lettering, etc. still can possibly make enough points depending on the kit.

                          I was on a team one time judging and the previous team, undervalued the points, because they said it was a kit. It really was not a kit, but a scratch built (from styrene) stock car BASED on a Westerfield kit, using Westerfield documentation for Conformity. It eventually got over a hundred points, but...it was scratch built.

                          Regards, Vic B.

                          Comment

                          • #103
                            Vic,

                            You certainly make a good point here. Unfortunately there is a WIDE disparity in knowledge by 'evaluators/judges'. I have seen this first hand several times in the past few years. 'Old timers' (mentally nor necessarily chronologically) seem to believe that if the scratchbuilt part isn't made of basswood, or brass, it's not 'scratchbuilt'. It will take a few years until this thought process can catch up to the latest technology. Sometimes I feel like that 'skateboarder kid' that gets the evil eye when I question the concern.

                            If you are an NMRA member, this link is Bob Hamm's clinic on evaluating. It's a good common sense look at the process.

                            https://www.nmra.org/judging-national-model-contest

                            Jim
                            Take the red pill

                            Comment

                            • #104
                              I agree that kits can be harder to get the necessary points. It should not be so difficult if it’s a traditional wood kit with a lot of cutting and fitting. If that’s the case it should be pointed out on the paperwork. Remember that a lot of points depend on neatness of the work whether kit or scratch.

                              Mike
                              _________________________________________________

                              Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. James Baldwin

                              Comment

                              • #105
                                Hi guys,

                                Yes, I am an NMRA member and a seasoned and qualified judge, er evaluator, that is. I am also the AP Chair for Division 13 in the MER.

                                My intent was not to dissuade people from entering contests or judging, er evaluation sessions, but to make sure folks understand that it is difficult to get the needed points for a merit award when submitting kits. Yes, I have seen kits get more than 88 points. In fact I got almost 100 points for the JL Innovative Suds Bucket. But bear in mind these kits had a lot of added extras.

                                The upshot is, keep building these difficult crafstman kits for two reason, eg. experience, plus they certainly can be used as the other 4 non-merit award models toward the Cars category.

                                I also find that Regional Contests can be a little more strict than the evaluation sessions that take place on a Division level. One of the reasons is that in the Contest arena, an entrant is not allowed to talk to the evaluators, but in a Division evaluation session, this is not only allowed, but in most cases encouraged.

                                Regards, Vic B.

                                Comment

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