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The C-and-D Railroad - Pacific Division

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  • #61
    quote:


    Originally posted by kathymillatt


    Gregg

    Just catching up on your latest postings. Wow - you continue to amaze and inspire me.

    The Rail Yard is looking great even in its roughed out state. I'm looking forward to your next shots each day. You seem to get so much done compared to me!

    Keep on posting

    Kathy


    Thanks Kathy. It's interesting. Every day I get a little done somewhere. I spend 30 minutes on one thing, then another and at the end of the week these small efforts add up to a feeling of accomplishment. At this rate, I ought to be finished in about 20 years, give or take a decade.
    Gregg


    Comment


    • #62
      Track Planid="size2">
      I made a quick attempt at updating my track plan (3D Railroad program). This program does not lend itself to quick and easy updates, but this should give you a perspective. (Recognize that some is roughed out and not all is to scale.) The track plan is based on two loops, an HO loop with associated sidings and a dual gauge loop with associated sidings. (This was originaly an HOn3 loop, but I decided to bring HO up to the top level.) I used this plan as a "guide" and made changes and adjustments while building, so things have changed some. Here is a photo of the plan.



      As you can see there will eventually be three towns, a yard, two rivers, a harbor and a dam. There is a minimum 22" radius on the HO main line and a minimum 18" radius on the dual gauge loop. All grades are 3% or less. The hidden track under the town of Diablo Falls is all accessable from the back side. The hidden track in the mountain is easily accessable from the wide interior access space. As with all track plans, this was an exercise in compromise to work within space limitations. I'm sure I will be making some modifications, but so far things seem to be working out.

      Although this planning software does not lend itself to easy changes, it was a very valuable tool. It allowed for setting and testing grades. I was able to print out a full scale plan for cutting the plywood track beds. It provided needed elevation heights for rough placement of the track beds during construction. But most important, it gave me a visual guide to my planning, allowing for many corrections prior to building. Here are some photos of 3D printouts I made 5-7 years ago of the design, along with similar shots of the layout. First is a shot of the foothills and the town of Diablo Falls. The hill in the background is under construction, so hidden in the layout photo





      Next is a shot of the harbor town of Grant's Landing and the source river canyon. The sawmill operation sits up on the hill behind town, visable from the other side of the layout.




      As you can see, some things have changed, but I pretty much stuck to the original plan/vision. This program was also helpful in deciding on the roundhouse position. The shot below is one of three I compaired and selected from. The roundhouse ended up where shown, although the other structure placements changed and the track is changing.


      I am slowly but surely making progress and will eventually have something that looks like this photo below.

      Gregg

      Comment


      • #63
        Gregg

        It's amazing how much you have packed in. The plan v actual shots show just what a master you are - the plans look good but the real thing just blows you away. The plan has a small feel to it but the actual layout looks open and spacious - a real accomplishment in any layout.

        I hadn't realised you were planning viewing on all three sides as well as internally. Even more opportunities for modelling and photography!

        Just a quick couple of techie questions: what's your maximum grade and minimum radius?

        Thanks for sharing.

        Kathy
        www.kathymillatt.co.uk

        Comment


        • #64
          Hi Kathy,

          See track plan above. "There is a minimum 22" radius on the HO main line and a minimum 18" radius on the dual gauge loop. All grades are 3% or less."

          Hi GreggW,

          Would you attribute the number of scenes and amount of dioramas to your use of varying elevations in your layout plan? You also appear to use the NOLIX concept to change elevations in your layout? I do not see any staging area per se in the track plan. Is that do to your concentration on modeling and scenery over train operation? Does your use of elevation prevent use of a multiple deck layout concept where perhaps a lower deck could be used as a staging area?

          I apologize if you have answered these questions in an earlier threads, but this the first time I have seen your track layout.

          Regards,

          Comment


          • #65
            Kathy, as Trent noted, the minimum radius' are 22" (HO) and 18" (dual gauge). The max grade is 3%, although I will exceed that for some of the narrow gauge work.

            Good questions Trent, which I will try to answer.

            Would you attribute the number of scenes and amount of dioramas to your use of varying elevations in your layout plan?id="blue"> - The number of available scenes are due to several factors including the varying elevations. Another factor is the use of varying angles and curves in the layout design. By eliminating 90 degree angles, you can see more and farther and gives much more layers and depth. By keeping the aisles fairly open allows for camera positioning to take advantage of these opportunities.

            You also appear to use the NOLIX concept to change elevations in your layout?id="blue"> - Hmmm. I do? I'm not sure what the NOLIX concept is. If you mean Not Observing other's Lessons In Xhibiting a good design, then yep, I kind of winged this one. Although I observed and read much and this was always in the back of my mind, I really just created to meet my goals, surely making design mistakes along the way.

            I do not see any staging area per se in the track plan.id="blue"> - I have ample staging room under the hills on both sides of the yard, as well as in the cabinet behind. You do not see it yet because location is dependent on final scenery design. In the end, that 3'x12' cabinet behind Diablo Falls will give lots of staging with an easy feed into the back of the yard.

            Is that do to your concentration on modeling and scenery over train operation?id="blue"> - No, per above the missing staging is a timing thing. That said, my primary goal was to create an asthetically pleasing layout. With all the compomises, this factor always won out. For example, the track design on the right side, going up the canyon and circling around on both sides was to give the proper feeling of height to the harbor town, to get the station well above the docks. Another example is on the left side where I pushed the tracks back and in, so I could add the foothills to give the needed separation between the two towns of Diablo Falls and Grant's Landing.

            Does your use of elevation prevent use of a multiple deck layout concept where perhaps a lower deck could be used as a staging area?id="blue"> - Yes the staging can go under the hills, but I am cautious of distrubing the trolls under the hills!! Actually this gets at a key element of this layout design. As you know I am leveraging elevations, but that means more that what is obvious. I intend to model the underground mining tunnels and shafts under both mountains, which will provide many unique scenes, probably adding 50% more photo opps in the same amount of floor space. Looking at the surface you only see a small part of a mine. This layout design gives me the opportunity to model much more. You will eventually be able to explore the lighted tunnels and mine shafts and see the significant below ground activity. This was just one more way for me to get maximum use of the space available. In fact, some of the tunnels are started in the harbor area. If you look closely at the Emporium Seafood photos you will find that the back access is through a tunnel. (enter the tunnels on the left side of Emporium. This is also where they have their cold storage lockers.

            Gregg

            Comment


            • #66
              Hi GreggW,

              A NOLIX is a helix straightened out where elevation changes are made using the length of the layout vice a Helix at one end or another. You have selected the NOLIX design whether you knew it or not. The advantage of a helix is attaining elevation changes in a defined area of the layout to access various levels. Normally a NOLIX can waste alot of space and make for alot of design compromises where the layout length becomes a key design requirement. In your case; however, you have made the NOLIX concept work for you as part of your integrated design and not sacrificing layout length for elevation only.

              Your viewing into the layout for mines, tunnels, additional scenic opportunites is excellent. I cannot wait (but I will have to) to see what these will look like.

              When is the open house and give my best to the mountain trolls.

              Regards,

              Comment


              • #67
                Hi Gregg

                I looke closely at the Emporium photos and couldn't spot the tunnel - as you can tell I'm really observant! Any chance you could post a close up for me please!

                Thanks

                Kathy
                www.kathymillatt.co.uk

                Comment


                • #68
                  quote:


                  Originally posted by kathymillatt


                  Hi Gregg

                  I looke closely at the Emporium photos and couldn't spot the tunnel - as you can tell I'm really observant! Any chance you could post a close up for me please!

                  Thanks

                  Kathy


                  Hi Kathy. Sorry for the delayed response, but I have been busy build'n. You can see one of the tunnel entrances behind Emporium Seafood in this shot. (It is behind the gas pump.) The fish cold storage lockers are back there.


                  This shot shows it a little better.



                  The road goes back into the tunnel and bends left to exit out to the street. A right turn takes you past the lockers and beyond.

                  Gregg

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Greg, with a plan like yours it does not matter if it takes 10 or 30 years there is always something new going on and to learn(borrow). The trackplan looks like it will keep the operational side of your pike very feasible. Congrats and I look froward to more progress.

                    I wonder since you said your sawmill is going to be on the hill, what do you have planned as your shipping? Will you bring railcars in to ship lumber to the port for shipping by those wonderful ships? Pat

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      quote:


                      Originally posted by belg


                      ...I wonder since you said your sawmill is going to be on the hill, what do you have planned as your shipping? Will you bring railcars in to ship lumber to the port for shipping by those wonderful ships? Pat


                      Thanks Pat. As you can see on the layout drawing, the sawmill is fed by rail, which was originally going to be all narrow gauge. By making that upper loop dual gauge I now have the option of bringing HO to the sawmill to pick up loads or take the lumber out via narrow gauge and transfer at another point.


                      But the primary shipping will be by boat. There will be a cable house sitting near the sawmill on the cliff, which will lower the lumber via wire chute down to the awaiting schooners. Here is a prototype shot.



                      And here is a test shot of loading a schooner, which I took when making sure I had room for the drop. This sits on the point around the corner from the lighthouse.



                      This should make for a great set of scenes.

                      Gregg

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Gregg, thanks for posting the trackplan myself and others have awaited. It looks like a railroad that's fun to operate or just sit back and watch run. Your dual gauge concept is a good way to utilize your narrow gauge equipment along with your standard gauge equipment. The loading of lumber off the cliff into the waiting vessel is spectacular!

                        How did they get the tram line out there to the vessel to start loading? Did they toss the line, or is there a peir that holds the line when not in use?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          quote:


                          Originally posted by Miles


                          Gregg, thanks for posting the trackplan myself and others have awaited. It looks like a railroad that's fun to operate or just sit back and watch run. Your dual gauge concept is a good way to utilize your narrow gauge equipment along with your standard gauge equipment. The loading of lumber off the cliff into the waiting vessel is spectacular!

                          How did they get the tram line out there to the vessel to start loading? Did they toss the line, or is there a peir that holds the line when not in use?


                          Hi Miles. Yes, it took me awhile to get the track plan updated. (That old 3D-Railroad program I have is not very user friendly to make changes, but it served it's purpose well.) It certainly will be fun to run this layout and I think it will be operations friendly, (although I know I have had to make many operations related compromises to get the layout feel I wanted). The gang over in the Layout Design/Operations folder are helping me fine-tune the rail yard and that should enhance operations.
                          Regarding the dual gauge line, I really hesitated going dual guage, verses leaving the upper loop solely narrow gauge, but in the end decided I wanted the option of getting the HO equipment up to the upper tracks.

                          Regarding the ship loading, I agree the wire chute scene will add much, plus is a significant part of our California coastal lumber industry history. There were several wire chutes used on the Mendicino coast in the 1900-1940 period, so I just had to have one on may layout. This scene was a key design element and it was quite a trick to get everything to fit right and make possible in my limited real estate. Here is another test shot, looking towards the mill.



                          Regarding wire chute operations, based on what I can tell from about a dozen photos and the limited writeups I have found, the cable was anchored off the coast and floated on a boey. The awaiting schooner would lift the cable up with it's boom and position the vessel so the cable crosses the loading deck. (You can see the cable running well beyond the raised ship's boom in all the various photos.) The cable house then runs the lumber loads out to the ship and the ship uses it's boom to lower and position the load. Here is another prototype shot, one with the cable house built on a platform out on the cliff like I will need to.



                          I am still researching and should know more by the time I finish the scene. The whole concept is pretty ingenious and much safer than bringing the schooner in closer to shore. Even then, these unique steam schooners designed for the California coast did not survive long working the waters with the many storms. Most were shipwrecked in less than 10-15 years. The one I show in my test shot is the Newsboy. The one that will go in this final position will be Alcatraz which shipwrecked in 1917 (although I am modeling in 1930, but what's a few years). It is modeled with the boom up and in position for wire chute operations. That larger triple decker on the docks is the Wapama, which is the last remaining California lumber schooner. It is presently docked and being restored in Richmand, CA by the California Maritime Museum.

                          Gregg

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Gregg

                            Thanks for posting the tunnel photo - I was looking the other side on all the shots!

                            The layout is looking really good - I can see there's a long way to go but you have achieved so much already.

                            Regards

                            Kathy
                            www.kathymillatt.co.uk

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              quote:


                              Originally posted by kathymillatt


                              Gregg

                              Thanks for posting the tunnel photo - I was looking the other side on all the shots!

                              The layout is looking really good - I can see there's a long way to go but you have achieved so much already.

                              Regards

                              Kathy


                              Kathy,
                              There is a tunnel entrance on the other side of Emporium also, which can be seen in the background of this pic.

                              Gregg


                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Gregg, you are creating a layout which I'm sure will become legendary! I'm simply stunned and demoralized after going through all these fine pictures over and over! You have managed to create a wealth of separate scenes with opportunities for composing fine pictures, and the overall appearance is airy and natural. As a landscape painter I wish such a place really existed... I'd never run out of subjects to paint.
                                Troels Kirk

                                Näsum, Sweden

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