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Author Topic Next Topic: Single slip, Double slip, or mysterious switch
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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/31/2018 :  11:02:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Freight Yard Ladder

Combo of paper templates and actual turnouts laid out on carpet. The edge of the rug is to represent the shed wall on that side of the room were the track close to wall is the track that feeds the helix down to staging. The next 2 tracks out are the mainline going into the helix structure then looping back out. So that's the 3 tracks on that side.




The ladder is a combo of the paper templates of Peco 'small radius' turnouts trimmed to fit as tight as possible together. These 4 turnouts would feed 4 flex tracks that would have straight and curves of no less than 22" to end up spaced 2"- 2.25" center to center spacing.

The very top of the ladder is a double-curved Peco 'set track' turnout that is connected to a 22" radius curve that enters the center peninsula area. It runs down the edge of the aisle towards the steel mill, and likely could have a couple of short spurs off of it.

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/sites/model-railroad-hobbyist.com/files/users/railandsail/DSCF3059.JPG





That loop of track going over into the center peninsula are is made up of 22" radius curves, and the approx distance between the centerlines of the 2 most inner tracks of that loop is 40" (looping around the end of that 30' aisle on that side of the layout.

The height of that 'ladder' (from the top of the loop to the end of that turnout it connects to on the mainline) is approx 48". Those 2 overall area dimensions are pretty close to what I had original sketched out for that area.


Most of the 'switcher locos' and freight cars should be able to negotiate the minimum 22" curves??

Need to do some tweaking, but this looks promising??


Brian

Edited by - railandsail on 11/02/2018 07:36:23 AM

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/31/2018 :  11:10:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Caution
You should have no problems with 22" radius BUT..The curve path through a Peco set-track turnout is actually 17 1/4" radius. Most switcher locos should be able to go to 18" radius without modification See https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/sites/model-railroad-hobbyist.com/files/users/Prof_Klyzlrfiles/On30Loco_n_Car_Radius_pics.pdf ). Go much below 18" radius, then the mechanism might handle it down to about 15" radius, but coupler swing and end-throw at the end of the locomotive and the attached rolling stock will probably become the limiting factor of how tight you can go without having derailment problems.

I'd advise caution, and building a "plank type" test rig to test your locos and rolling stock through this curve combination before locking yourself in when you lay the track for real. You shouldn't have any problems, but you are sailing close to the edge of the "reliability envelope" here. If the knuckle couplings on your locos and rolling stock have limited swing or the coupler pockets are a long way outboard of your bogie pivots then you may be heading for trouble.

Regards,

John Garaty


Brian

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 11/01/2018 :  5:57:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The SET TRACK from Peco is more of the 'entree level' track system than the STREAMLINE systems/tracks, As such it usually includes some smaller radius, tighter curve turnouts.

In their Code100 tracks they basically offer 2 double-curve turnouts,....a set track one and a streamline one.
1) The consensus of opinion puts the larger 'streamline' one at 30" inner radius and 60" outer radius.

2) The smaller 'set track' one is generally been quoted as 17 1/4" inner radius and 19 7/8" outer radius
Here is a little experiment I conduced this afternoon on those smaller radius set track ones,...



Here is a single one of those small dbl curves surrounded by a piece of 18" radius track on one side, and a 22" radius track on the other. These are going to be brought closer to the dbl-curve turnout in steps,...





That to me is a close enough fit to call that inner radius of the dbl-curve turnout an 18" curve



Now the 22" curve along the outer curve of the dbl-curve,...



Not quite as close of a fit, but likely in at least the 21" range,.....and I think that can work out in a 22" arc of trackwork.


A few photos of this dbl-curve laying over drawn out arcs,













Bottom line, I'm feeling pretty comfortable placing this at the head of my yard ladder. In fact I may include two of them at the head of the ladder. (It was a real surprise to me that I had even one of these turnouts, let alone 4 lefts and 2 rights !!).

And another nice thing is it I have any derailments with these turnouts they are located right next to the aisle within easy reach.


Brian

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 11/02/2018 :  11:13:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
...from another forum...

Mocking it up by setting track next to each other or placing on marked up paper is probably not as precise as you want for this situation.

I think the suggestions were more about actually laying some track of several feet then running all of your equipment through it to give you a better idea. You already have the track it looks like. In the flesh trials would give you better results than theoretical discussions and mathematical computations.


I didn't have the time today to get all of that equipment out to perform such a test as suggested. But I did do a little abbreviated version. I attached some 22" curves onto either end of the outer radius, and an 18" curve onto the diverging track.


I selected a few freight cars (40 & 50 footers) and ran them back and forth thru this. One even had the old sprung trucks with very small flange wheels . They ran just find.

One thing I did notice is that made a very slight jog at the point end of the turnout. That is a result of that end being slightly straight in nature compared to the other curved portions. Perhaps you can see that here,..



One nice detail on this Peco dbl-curve is that fact that the point rail has a radius built in.



I believe that most any car/loco that can traverse either 18"r or 22"r on their own, will be able to negotiate the respective route of this turnout. I don't think they will be prone to picking the points here, or having trouble with the frog.

I am also feeling good about utilizing 2 of these dbl-curves at the head of the ladder. So the first 2 diverging routes will be 18" radius entrances, and limited to cars/locos that can use them. The rest will be cars/locos that can negotiate 22" curves, which are many.

Longer cars/locos that need at least 24" radius could enter from the mainline track, up the ladder, then duck into a yard track thru the Peco 'small radius' conventional turnouts that make up the ladder, and that have a diverging route of 24" inches.


Brian

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 11/03/2018 :  08:32:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was playing around with this idea.

Seeing as how my single dbl-curve turnout didn't bring that yard track out to the proposed edge of my shelf, I might well put in another dbl-curve, and end up with an additional yard track for storage or that might serve my steel mill, etc. So maybe 2 dbl-curves at the head of the ladder. .

If I should experience any derail problems with these Peco dble curves, turns out I have a number of other brands I collected over the years,....Atlas, Roco, Casadyo. ...And lastly they will be very close to the aisle for accessibility.

Will fooling around with this idea, I wondered if I might provide for a 24" radius track to enter that peninsula area? This is what I came up with do far. The tape measure lying there is set at 30", my initial idea for shelf depth on that side of the layout. The white paper cutout represents the aisle space, also 30" wide.

The two parallel tracks on the upper left side would serve the turntable and the curved route with steam engine access, and would go under the a coaling tower along there. The addition 'outside chute' (third rail) of the coaling tower would serve the ladder straight for those smaller steam switchers.

















Brian

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rca2
Engine Wiper

Posted - 11/06/2018 :  1:33:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Two points for you to think about, not respond to necessarily.

If you are going to have different themes on the upper and lower decks and both have dog-bones for continuous running, why connect the two layouts (I mean decks) with a helix?

Some of your comments indicated that you wanted to see trains running through scenery, wanted some mountains and admired city landscapes too. If you plan the track first and fill the layout footprint with as much track as possible, there won't be any room left for scenery to run your trains through.

You also appear to want the layout to display your trains. I can understand why, even though you don't care much for switching, you would want a storage/staging yard in view rather than a hidden staging yard.

Finally leave enough people space, lighting and temperature control that you feel comfortable and not claustrophobic. If you are uncomfortable, you won't want to stay for long in the room.


Modeling Arizona Eastern Railroad, Hayden Junction (1920), in On30

Country: USA | Posts: 448 Go to Top of Page

railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 11/26/2018 :  10:26:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some folks have been suggesting a 'pinwheel' ladder scheme for my yard ladder, and I entertained a number of configurations of these,...such as this one,...

The simplest solution for the yard ladder would be to change where the feed to the yard is located on the peninsula from the left side to the right side. I don't know how badly that will mess up your plans for the peninsula though. It will require some crossings to get to the left side of the peninsula. I have shown 90 degree crossings here but you might be able to fit in other angles.

The aisles are 30" and the peninsula is 24" wide:




Basically I had hopes that some of the trains could enter that peninsula area head on, then disconnect the big locos that brought them there, and let smaller swithers handle the spoting and unloading of the individual cars in the peninsula area. Meanwhile the big steam locos would head off to the turntable/roundhouse area. The diesels would go over to their servicing and/or rebuilding area at the far edge of the freight yardI had thought that this relocation of the lead engines might have to occur on track(s) located along the very left side of the peninsula, rather than those engines ending up over to the right hand side of the peninsula then having to cross back over the central track that brought them into the peninsula area.



***************************************

More Thoughts on Peninsula Trackplan

So here is an image of the original peninsula plan of TL / FJ plan, posted into my present plan,...



and a blowup of that peninsula plan,..



My initial thoughts are 2 tracks to either side of that long building will be container unloading/loading tracks with cars passing down those tracks with an overhead hoisting systems that lift the containers off the cars and transport them to a stacking/storage area (imaginary) in that aisle-way between this peninsula and the freight yard.

The 'big' locomotives that brought the consist into the peninsula area can then escape one or two ways on tracks (22r & 24r) provided for on the very left side/edge of the peninsula, while smaller switchers and trackmobiles handle the individual cars or groups of cars.

I'll have to do a new sketch for that peninsula area. Anyone want to contribute some ideas for the peninsula trackplan??


Brian

Edited by - railandsail on 11/26/2018 6:57:44 PM

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 11/26/2018 :  2:37:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Decision Time on the Yard Ladder

Yard Ladder Turnouts and Loops from Peninsula


I have been playing around with the design of the trackplan for this area for a few weeks now. And I have had my share of naysayers commenting about my original use of tight radius curved turnouts at the head of the ladder. There have been a few suggesting that I utilize a pinwheel configuration in the ladder, and I have taken time to give this idea serious considerations. I've even mocked up a few of these possibilities.

I have reached the conclusion that these broader radius loops generated by the slightly broader radius 24”+ plus pinwheel arrangements force my loops of track connecting the peninsula to the freight yard and the turntable, to a situation where the one end of that track ends up in the middle, or to the opposite side of the peninsula. I don't find that to be acceptable (if avoidable) in the overall scheme.


So this is the trackplan design I have chosen. There will be 2 'concentric' loops connecting the peninsula to the freight yard. The outer one will be 24” radius minimum for the bigger locos, and the inner one will be basically 22”. but with 2 spurs of 18” plus.


Those two 18”spurs will be inner legs of the 2 curved (I call them dbl-curved) turnouts at the head of the ladder. Those 2 turnouts will be either a pair of Pecos or a pair of Roco turnouts, both of nice quality. There is the further possibility that I could do some slight modifications to either of these curved turnouts to increase their radii slightly. Shown here, the pair of ROCOs


The first Roco encountered has an 18”r diverging leg and one piece of 18”r track into that second track of the yard. The second Roco encountered has an 18”r diverging leg into a 22” curve, and into the third track in the yard.



All of the rest of yard tracks are fed by minimum 24” diverging legs off of Peco 'small' turnouts in the ladder. Crossovers and double slips can be arranged to make the second and third tracks of the yard accessible by 24”r capable equipment. Even the very first yard track could be linked such as to have 24”r capability further down the line, but that likely will not be necessary as it will be involved with short locos and cars of the steel industry.


I have run some pushing/pulling (by hand) test of container well cars over these curves, and experienced no problems even in the 18” curves which are possibly set as 'off-limits' to these longer cars. And I connected two such wellcars together, and to a VERY short tender car. No problems. I'll post some photos a bit later.


Brian

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mark_dalrymple
Crew Chief

Posted - 11/26/2018 :  6:44:23 PM  Show Profile  Send mark_dalrymple an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Hi Brian.

Not what I would do with the space - but I am still enjoying your journey. I love to cram things in - but over the years I have found my track work keeps getting stripped back to make room for more structures and scenery.

I'm not sure, but I think I see a Y-turnout on the curved section of track? This will make a S-curve that may be problematic. I also see you have fleshed out a design in the centre part of the layout, but the isle clearance to your existing waterfront diorama still appears to be around 12 inches.

Enjoying watching your problem solving and experimentation.

Cheers, Mark.



Country: New Zealand | Posts: 943 Go to Top of Page

railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 11/27/2018 :  11:14:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark_dalrymple

Hi Brian.

Not what I would do with the space - but I am still enjoying your journey. I love to cram things in - but over the years I have found my track work keeps getting stripped back to make room for more structures and scenery.

I'm not sure, but I think I see a Y-turnout on the curved section of track? This will make a S-curve that may be problematic. I also see you have fleshed out a design in the centre part of the layout, but the isle clearance to your existing waterfront diorama still appears to be around 12 inches.

Enjoying watching your problem solving and experimentation.

Cheers, Mark.



To Eagle Eye Mark....ha...ha
I have several Y's on this plan now. I imagine you are speaking about the one going off the 24" r 'outer loop' to the turntable? That is a Peco 'small radius Y' with a nominal radius of 24". I put that in there as it best matched to 24" radius of that outer loop. I'm hoping that won't create problems with SINGLE locos or long cars passing thru it.

I have several other Y's planned, and they are the Peco 'large radius' ones with 72" nominal radius.

I'm also considering some double slips in various places, but have not checked out their 'nominal radii' yet

And you are correct about that clearance down there between the peninsula and the waterfront scene. In a hurry I threw that peninsula scene 'overlay' into my dwg before correcting it,...just to give an idea of what I was seeking.


Brian

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 11/27/2018 :  11:22:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I have run some pushing/pulling (by hand) test of container well cars over these curves, and experienced no problems even in the 18” curves which are possibly set as 'off-limits' to these longer cars. And I connected two such wellcars together, and to a VERY short tender car. No problems. I'll post some photos a bit later.

Brian


I hooked up 2 of the Peco curved turnouts to sections of 22" and 18" Atlas sectional track, and ran some container 'well cars' over it. I weighted the well cars with a couple of steel bolts, and I finally hooked a very short tender car to those well cars. Everything with 'well'













Brian

Edited by - railandsail on 11/27/2018 11:24:27 AM

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 11/27/2018 :  11:44:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark_dalrymple

Hi Brian.

Not what I would do with the space - but I am still enjoying your journey. I love to cram things in - but over the years I have found my track work keeps getting stripped back to make room for more structures and scenery.


Cheers, Mark.


I guess I am more of an 'industry' based structures person than a country or city scenery person. (I did play with 'erector sets' as a kid, and went into mech engineering).

That freight yard will be connected to steel mill and fabrication works down at the end. And I hope to put in a diesel engine repair shop along with the sanding and fuel oil services for the diesels. And yard lights on towers and dwarf lights on the tracks.

One of my basic hopes for the freight yard scene was to also be able to:
1)park a few of many different diesel engines at times (waiting for repair, or waiting to be sent out),
2)park a few of my unusual and very neat freight cars I hate to keep buried in staging,
3)provide for a little switching activity.
4) etc


Brian

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jbvb
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 11/27/2018 :  11:57:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit jbvb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If you continue checking at this level of detail, I think you'll wind up with something operational. It will be very much your layout (tough for someone else to learn) with the mix of 'go anywhere' equipment and 'can't use certain tracks' equipment. I foresee a few more potential trouble sources:

1. Combinations of long and short equipment on minimum radii, turnouts, s-curves: (short switcher, long passenger car, 40 foot car between two longer cars, long 6-axle diesel & 40 foot car etc.)

2. Little mismatches between turnouts and/or sectional track curves. They can build up into troublesome kinks as construction progresses.

3. Train dynamics when a loco is pulling or pushing is usually different from hand-pushing. 15 car trains are much pickier than pairs of cars.

I think it would be worth connecting a power pack and trying a few locos on your test combinations above.

The other thing to watch out for with sectional track turnouts is blunt points. Their worst effect will be when pushing a train through the inside route of a facing point curved turnout. Filing them sharper where the flange touches is easier before installation.



Country: USA | Posts: 5663 Go to Top of Page

railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 11/28/2018 :  1:32:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Container Port on my Peninsula

So I was surfing around the internet looking for some ideas for my little container unloading facility on my peninsula. I ran across this rather interesting one, but I think it may be a bit too large for my space surprise-wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpi1jswifac


Brian

Edited by - railandsail on 11/28/2018 1:40:11 PM

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 11/28/2018 :  1:39:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jbvb
The other thing to watch out for with sectional track turnouts is blunt points. Their worst effect will be when pushing a train through the inside route of a facing point curved turnout. Filing them sharper where the flange touches is easier before installation.


I'll try to remember that. Thanks for the notification


Brian

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