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 Dbl-deck Layout in its Own Train Shed
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Author Previous Topic: Single slip, Double slip, or mysterious switch Topic Next Topic: Free Design Help
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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/16/2018 :  10:05:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Text for that bottom plan posted above,...(oops the page number switched so I best post that dwg along with the text)


My latest 2 sketches for the bottom and top decks of my dbl deck layout plans has been an attempt to both;
1) Decide on what structures I will utilize on my layout ? ...(select from a LARGE selection of ones I have in storage)
2) Give them an area on the layout plan, so I can decide how they might fit, and how the deck/shelf plan needs to be configured to handle them.

I have been moving things around quite a bit....understatement :).

a) Steel Mill.
Most recently I moved my steel mill scene out of the upper right corner down to the lower left corner. It needed a little more room for some trackage, and access trackage. I think it has it now. That rolling mill as shown sits awfully close to the tracks, and that was done such that it could be cut down in length (shortened) if need be. The blast furnace might also be moved over just a bit to the left if another run around track for the hot metal cars was to be provided.

b) Waterfront.
I'll have several 'waterfront areas', but I had really been interested in finding a location for the scene I had purchased from an estate sale. I believe that latest placement in the right corner next to the entrance does it justice. I'll likely have to do a little trimming around the edges, but I can use those small structures in another spot, or attached to a different corner of this scene.

c) Brick Factory, Kilns
As shown on this dwg I first thought of putting it up in the right hand corner sitting on a mound that would cover one of the center peninsula tracks. I am seriously reconsidering that, and now placing it down behind my waterfront scene. I think it will fit in with the 'older architecture' of the waterfront scene now located there, and can be provided with access trackage in a better manner.

d) Refinery and Tank Farms
I now moved that from the lower left corner up to that upper right corner. The refinery(s) themselves will likely be located in the corners next to the backdrops themselves, and the multiple storage tanks will be distributed throughout the area, including to either side to mainlines feeding the helix (perhaps a multiple series of steel trust bridges for these mainlines?) the peninsula access track in that refinery area will not be covered by an earthen mound, but rather will pass thru the tank farm area.

e) Peninsula Access
I had been seeking several access tracks to the central peninsula, and that one on the right hand side can present an acceptable alternative. Plus it is long enough that a whole train can set in that 'passing track' waiting for its turn to enter the fray. Or it can operate in there while breaking down or reassembly to drop off cars for businesses in the central peninsula.

f) Stone Arch Bridge, Continuous Loop Trackage
There is a track feeding off the mainline on the upper right side over to a track on the left hand side. This track provides for a 'continuous loop' on the lower level such that the trains do not always have to climb the helix. It sits behind the turntable and in front of Balt city. I'm imagining it is a stone arch bridge sinilar to one I have already posted a photo of, and that was located just outside of Balt.
I have yet to find an acceptable way to join it into the mainlines on the left with a 'gentle grade'. So I am willing to put up with it have a big grade in a short distance, and thinking that in many cases the trains will be descending this grade.

g) Turntable
This structure has been moved back and forth across the layout plan on numerous occassions. I believe it has a good home now.

h) Coaling Tower and Steam Engine Servicing
I need to work on these details some more. The dwg is just a general placement, and thetracks are wrong.

i) Freight Yard
I had thought that the one side (left) of the freight yard would have several tracks for diesel engine fueling and sand, then several for engines in 'waiting' (display), and a two track maintenance building, with some short track storage out back??

j) Scrap Yard?
Perhaps a RR scrap yard in the lower left corner (old locos, frieght cars, etc)

k) Peninsula
Several industries primarily centered around shipping ,....(containers, lumber. coal) ???


Brian

Edited by - railandsail on 10/16/2018 10:10:20 AM

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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 10/16/2018 :  11:20:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Brian,

I think you need to draw some templates of the minimum radius and turnout number you plan to use. There are places on your sketches where track radius looks too tight and turnouts diverge at too large of an angle.

You’ve expended a lot of time and effort making sure your layout is climate-controlled in the shed and under roof. Don’t you worry about having a major part—the helix—outside of the shed?

Mike


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Country: USA | Posts: 4130 Go to Top of Page

railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/16/2018 :  1:13:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hohn

Brian,

I think you need to draw some templates of the minimum radius and turnout number you plan to use. There are places on your sketches where track radius looks too tight and turnouts diverge at too large of an angle.

I've drawn a lot of it at a scale of 1" = 1'. That is the square blocks I show on a portion of the dwgs. Of course that scale dwg gets messed up when I photograph the image and reduce it in order to post it on the forums. I don't have a large format scanner.

I've general tried to use 30" radius curves on my mainlines. A couple of the curves going into the peninsula are 24 inch radius. The helix curves are 28.5 inner, 31.5 outer if I remember correctly.


quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hohn
You’ve expended a lot of time and effort making sure your layout is climate-controlled in the shed and under roof. Don’t you worry about having a major part—the helix—outside of the shed?

Mike


I have spent a very considerable amount of time building that helix structure of basically all aluminum construction, then insulating it as well. I have written quite a long blog on it along with many photos. You might have a look towards the end of that blog, beginning here
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/32990?page=9

I'll post just a few photos here




Roof Insulation before cutting to shape







3 tracks entering the shed/staging areas from the helix structure


Eventually I will have an access door in this side of that helix structure, and maybe even a viewing window (requested by my older neighbor 88 next door).


Brian

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mark_dalrymple
Crew Chief

Posted - 10/16/2018 :  3:13:36 PM  Show Profile  Send mark_dalrymple an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Hi Brian.

Helix looks great. I think a window is an awesome idea!

I agree with the idea of using some templates. I understand that you have photographed your plan rather than scanned it, but your squares still look fairly uniform. A few dimensions I noted:

The inner track curve in front of the turntable has a radius of approx. 17". I also note you have turnouts coming off this curve - which I believe means you would need to hand make these.
The isle width as you enter the room to the left is approx 18".
The isle width as you enter the room to the right is approx. 15". These appear very tight to me.
The angle that your feed track for the yard is at seems way to great (my peco turnouts are 12 degrees). There also does not appear to be enough room for turnouts to obtain the amount of yard tracks you presently have (my shortest peco turnout is approx 7 1/2" and has a radius of 24").
I also note that the largest isle width anywhere is the width of a narrow doorway. It would be nice to have at least one larger area to give a bit of breathing space.

Perhaps you are happy with these isle tolerances and you plan on using Peco setrack (our similar) around the engine facilities, but considering the other radi you mention I doubt it.

Just some things to consider moving forward. I'm sure other companies do this, but below is a link to Peco downloadable and printable turnout templates.

https://peco-uk.com/collections/turn-out-crossing-plans

Cheers, Mark.



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jbvb
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 10/16/2018 :  8:10:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit jbvb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The helix in the plan at the top of this page shows two curved wye turnouts off the inner circle, each connecting to a diamond crossing with both legs curved. I don't think either the turnouts or the diamonds can be purchased. I'm an experienced hand-layer and could build them, but I'm concerned about grades. 8-coupled steam and full-length passenger cars can be quite sensitive to changes in grade, particularly around frogs and points. These tracks diverge from the ascending helix, so the left one will be difficult to get back down to the lowest level of the helix (leftmost pair of tracks) in the space shown. The right one is more workable, but I don't understand how the single track through the underpass and left of the stud can reach the elevation of the double track right of the stud.


Country: USA | Posts: 5663 Go to Top of Page

railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/16/2018 :  8:40:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gentlemen, thanks for those comments and observations. I will have to look at the details more closely in the morning.

Brian

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/17/2018 :  08:59:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark_dalrymple

Hi Brian.

Helix looks great. I think a window is an awesome idea!

I have in mind a vertical 'panel' of clear acrylic next to the opening door that will allow access to the 3 way turnout. etc



quote:
Originally posted by mark_dalrympleThe inner track curve in front of the turntable has a radius of approx. 17". I also note you have turnouts coming off this curve - which I believe means you would need to hand make these.

You are very nearly correct, I measured it out this morning and it is an 18" radius. I believe my thought processes when I sketched this out rather quickly was that smaller switching engines (both steam and diesel)would be able to use this shortcut to avoid the turntable. Larger engines and longer cars would have to utilize the 120' turntable to get around this tight curve. This is one of those areas that likely needs closer scrutiny, prior to any final design.
As I've said it was to be a 'communication route' between the peninsula and the freight yard while avoiding the turntable. I think most 4 axle diesel models these days will negotiate an 18" radius at slow speeds, and I would hope several other small switchers would. And how about a trackmobile such as the one Broadway Ltd produced. I'd like to have one of those.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa9zIie9EyQ br /


Brian

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/17/2018 :  09:33:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark_dalrymple
Hi Brian.

The isle width as you enter the room to the left is approx 18".
The isle width as you enter the room to the right is approx. 15". These appear very tight to me.

I also note that the largest isle width anywhere is the width of a narrow doorway. It would be nice to have at least one larger area to give a bit of breathing space.

Perhaps you are happy with these isle tolerances...


Perhaps my scale dwg is a little off, but basically my plans were that the two corners at this end of the layout would consist of the 2 ends of 4x8 sheets of plywood. With these fitted into the overall inside width of the shed (11'1"
that would make the center entrance clearance 36" wide. I consider this adequate when I look at all the doors in my mobile home that are only 31" wide, and offer plenty of clearance,...for me...6'4", 200lbs.

Breathing space? Yes I would like to have more breathing space, BUT I am also trying to fit a lot of RR into a relatively small space, and trade-offs were necessary. Since I am a lone operator, I figured I could get along with isles of 'less than normal' size.

quote:
Originally posted by mark_dalrymple
The angle that your feed track for the yard is at seems way to great (my peco turnouts are 12 degrees). There also does not appear to be enough room for turnouts to obtain the amount of yard tracks you presently have (my shortest peco turnout is approx 7 1/2" and has a radius of 24").

Cheers, Mark.


Perhaps I drew in too many yard tracks. I had plans on using the 'small radius' Pecos.
I'm going to see if I can mock this up this afternoon with actual turnouts


Brian

Edited by - railandsail on 10/17/2018 09:40:05 AM

Country: | Posts: 94 Go to Top of Page

railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/17/2018 :  10:02:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jbvb

The helix in the plan at the top of this page shows two curved wye turnouts off the inner circle, each connecting to a diamond crossing with both legs curved. I don't think either the turnouts or the diamonds can be purchased. I'm an experienced hand-layer and could build them, but I'm concerned about grades. 8-coupled steam and full-length passenger cars can be quite sensitive to changes in grade, particularly around frogs and points. These tracks diverge from the ascending helix, so the left one will be difficult to get back down to the lowest level of the helix (leftmost pair of tracks) in the space shown. The right one is more workable, but I don't understand how the single track through the underpass and left of the stud can reach the elevation of the double track right of the stud.


I don't think you understand my dwg, and admittedly this helix configuration can be confusing. There is only ONE turnout located inside that external helix structure,....the one down at the very lowest level,...the 3-way turnout that feeds the staging tracks.

Here is a different view of the helix tracks.
Helix Spiral

For those having a little problem visualizing my multideck spiral within the helix structure, here is another view....
(that B is for 'balloon loop')


and here is that 3-way turnout mock-up to staging...






Brian

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/17/2018 :  2:32:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark_dalrymple

The inner track curve in front of the turntable has a radius of approx. 17". I also note you have turnouts coming off this curve - which I believe means you would need to hand make these.

The angle that your feed track for the yard is at seems way to great (my peco turnouts are 12 degrees). There also does not appear to be enough room for turnouts to obtain the amount of yard tracks you presently have (my shortest peco turnout is approx 7 1/2" and has a radius of 24").

Cheers, Mark.



You were really correct Mark. When I tried to lay this out with actually track and turnouts, I was having extreme difficulty getting anything like this idea I proposed. I will have to take a whole new fresh look at this area.


Brian

Country: | Posts: 94 Go to Top of Page

railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/18/2018 :  09:50:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jbvb

The helix in the plan at the top of this page shows two curved wye turnouts off the inner circle, each connecting to a diamond crossing with both legs curved. I don't think either the turnouts or the diamonds can be purchased. I'm an experienced hand-layer and could build them, but I'm concerned about grades. 8-coupled steam and full-length passenger cars can be quite sensitive to changes in grade, particularly around frogs and points. These tracks diverge from the ascending helix, so the left one will be difficult to get back down to the lowest level of the helix (leftmost pair of tracks) in the space shown. The right one is more workable, but I don't understand how the single track through the underpass and left of the stud can reach the elevation of the double track right of the stud.


I must apologize to you sir. I made a mistake when I replied to your posting just recently. I stated there was ONLY one turnout in the helix structure, the 3-way feeding the staging tracks.

However there is one other. It is located in the 3-oclock position on the 'bottom balloon loop' of track (see helix sketch recently posted). It feeds the central peninsula industrial area from that inner balloon loop. I think it can be a std right hand turnout with its curved leg matched to the curving loop of track there,....or maybe it should be a 'Y' turnout? What do you think would be best??

(The radius of that inner loop of track is 29.5" at that point)


Brian

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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 10/18/2018 :  11:24:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I think we are all a little optimistic when drawing a track plan and then reality strikes when we actually start laying track. Your approach to test things out first is a good one.

Impressive construction on the helix.

Mike


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Country: USA | Posts: 4130 Go to Top of Page

railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/18/2018 :  12:10:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cardboard Mock-ups

On my first attempts at a layout design (different than this), I made some cardboard mock-ups of the decks and peninsula,...to see if i could fit it in. It was a little tighter than this now.
[https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/30266?page=5

Perhaps I should give that a try again,...but I am pretty sure my present one will fit without a loop at the end of the peninsula.


Brian

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/19/2018 :  09:50:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark_dalrymple

The angle that your feed track for the yard is at seems way to great (my peco turnouts are 12 degrees). There also does not appear to be enough room for turnouts to obtain the amount of yard tracks you presently have (my shortest peco turnout is approx 7 1/2" and has a radius of 24").

Cheers, Mark.



You were really correct Mark. When I tried to lay this out with actually track and turnouts, I was having extreme difficulty getting anything like this idea I proposed. I will have to take a whole new fresh look at this area.


Compound Yard Ladder

I don't know that much about them yet, but I ran across this term 'compound yard ladder'.

quote:
from another older discussion on another forum....

I bought Andy Sperandeo's Kalmbach book on Yard design a few years ago and thought it might be wise to brush up on the basic concepts before I made any other blunders. During this process I discovered my saving grace was right under my nose: the compound yard ladder! It's a bit difficult to explain, but for the uninitiated it's a yard ladder in which extra turnouts are placed below the tracks that make up the basic ladder allowing for more tracks in a given length of yard ladder. This design gives you more space to place usable yard track and takes up less space with turnouts for a given number of yard tracks.


The image at left was taken at approximately the same location as the picture above from 6 months ago. The increased yard capacity is amazing. In my old yard using a straight ladder I had about 135" of track in the yard. With the new design (including that track not yet installed on the 3rd and 4th track) I will have approximately 250" of yard track; that's an 85% increase in capacity just by changing the yard ladder.

The moral of the story, if you're tight on space it's worth considering a compound ladder for your yard design. While you may not see the same increase in capacity I did (I shifted around the turnouts a bit along the top of the image to allow for a pinwheel entrance to the yard which helped me add capacity) it will definitely help with space constraints.



Would it make any sense for me to consider such a thing for my yard area??


Brian

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railandsail
Section Hand



Posted - 10/28/2018 :  7:23:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Freight Yard Ladder Mock-up

I'm doing a little full scale mock-up of the yard ladder on my living room carpet. Not ready to supply any photos yet.

...but I have been putting up some of my 'metal benchwork'


Brian

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