Railroad Line Forums - Promised Update...
Railroad Line Forums
Username:
Password:
Save Password


Register
Forgot Password?
  Home   Forums   Events Calendar   Sponsors   Support the RRLine   Guestbook   FAQ     Register
Active Topics | Active Polls | Resources | Members | Online Users | Live Chat | Avatar Legend | Search | Statistics
Photo Album | File Lister | File Library
[ Active Members: 2 | Anonymous Members: 0 | Guests: 90 ]  [ Total: 92 ]  [ Newest Member: rkovvur ]
 All Forums
 Model Railroad Forums
 Early Rail Forum
 Promised Update...
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic |   Reply to Topic | 
Author Previous Topic: The Coos Bay and Willamette  Valley Part two Topic Next Topic: New W&N
Page: of 54

RyanAK
Engine Wiper

Posted - 01/23/2019 :  06:54:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Really enjoying this thread, Andre. I love the peek into history and following along with your reasoning as you work out the details. This is going to be a neat layout. The dual era makes you think about how much life changed (and how much it has stayed the same...) in just a few generations.

R


Designing a 1905-ish Pennsylvania Short Line
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51030&whichpage=1

Country: USA | Posts: 113 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 01/23/2019 :  2:56:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Ryan!

Glad you're enjoying it! I'm enjoying rambling. Speaking of which...

Just finished my lunch (fried bologna sandwich with a cold glass of milk..ummm!), and I'm in a mood to ramble!

THE MOUNTAINS

Some of you may not be too familiar with the Ozark (or Ouachita) region. Basically the Ozarks are like the mountains found in Tennessee, West Virginia, Virginia, and some portions of Pennsylvania, New England, etc. That is, they're similar in ruggedness, verdant and mostly covered with deciduous trees, with some pines (coniferous types) mixed-in for good measure.

The Ozarks are not as high in total elevation as some of the others ranges mentioned, but valley to peak ratios are close to what you'll see in the mountains I compared them to above.

The most rugged of the Ozarks is mainly found in the interior. No railroads ever penetrated the truly rugged portions on account of the tight and steep confines of the hollows and watercourses, as well as the steepness of some of the mountainsides. I had a railroading friend from PA come down and spend a few days with me riding Harley's in the Ozarks, and he remarked "no wonder there were never any rails in these parts of Ozarks... I had no idea they were so tight, confined... and rugged!"

But I digress.

There were four main line railroads that penetrated the Ozarks: The StL&SF in NW/W AR, the KCS in NW AR and NE OK, the Missouri & North Arkansas in NW AR and the north central Ozarks, and the Iron Mountain (Mopac) "White River Line" in north central Ozarks. They all varied in grade and construction standards.

Frisco:

The Frisco was the first line to truly penetrate the Ozarks. Construction south out of Monett, MO, was begun early in 1880, and by late 1882 had reached the Arkansas River at Van Buren, AR. The steepest main line grades were also found the Frisco. Their ruling grade was northbound between Chester, AR and Winslow, AR and reached 2.69%. Their remaining grades were held below 2%. The Frisco had to use a tunnel at the summit of their steepest grade. The north tunnel portal was entered immediately upon leaving Winslow southbound.

North Arkansas:

The North Arkansas was the second railroad to penetrate portions of the Ozarks. The Seligman, MO, to Eureka Springs portion of the North Arkansas was completed late January, 1883. The remaining extension through the Ozarks was started in 1899 and the rails were finally completed at the southwestern terminal of Helena, AR, in 1909. Their ruling grade was northbound as they approached/arrived at Seligman, MO, and their connection with the Frisco RR. There the grade reached 2.6%. The North Arkansas' remaining grades were held to 1.75%, but there were MANY. (Their profile looked like a hogback!) The North Arkansas had to employ a tunnel at one of their summits, also. Their tunnel was west of Eureka Springs, AR.

KCS:

The KCS was the third railroad to broach the Ozarks. However, they almost missed the Ozarks, barely skirting the western edge of the Ozarks in SW Missouri, NW Arkansas, and NE/eastern Oklahoma. Their grades were kept below 2% with no tunnels needed. The KCS built through their portion of the Ozarks in the late 1890s.

Iron Mountain (Mopac):

The last of the main lines through a portion of the Ozarks began construction westward out of Newport, AR, in February of 1901 and was completed in December of 1905. This line had the best construction standards of the four. Their grades were held to 1%, but used FIVE tunnels to do so. The line was extremely expensive to construct.

I will be using all of the railroads that penetrated portions of the Ozarks as my guidelines for the elements of my Ozark TOC19 era. (Including short lines I haven't mentioned, as well as proposed lines that were never built.) Bottom line: IF the prototypes of the Ozarks did it, so can I.

To acquaint you with scenes along some of the lines that penetrated portions of the Ozarks, allow me to share a few pictures. These scenes will be on the former St. Louis & San Francisco RR ("Frisco") line that runs from Monett, MO, down to Fort Smith, Arkansas.

First up, a scene on "Clear Creek" (also called Frog Bayou, or Frog Creek), just south of the Lancaster, AR area. (Lancaster as a town is long gone.) I've run trains and been on trains past this scene many, many times:



Here's a picture of Bridge No.1 location (about 1 1/2 miles south of the summit town of Winslow, AR). I've also railroaded over this location (different bridge) many, many times:



And now looking south into the valley as a northbound nears the south portal of Boston Mtn Tunnel. This view is seen soon after leaving south out of the summit town of Winslow, AR. Pulling tonnage north, I've breathed a sigh of relief at this point many times when lofting heavy trains up that grade! Going south, it was time to be up on the sticks and use your air wisely, for several miles of 2.5-2.69% mountain grade is ahead of you!



So, the Ozarks are rugged, and the railroading in them likewise. No, it ain't the Rockies. However, IMHO, it DOES contain some interesting topography, interesting railroading, and a fascinating culture nonetheless.

THE DEPOTS

The depots out in the nether parts of the mountains were always modest affairs. "Ornate" simply wasn't found. The depots were built of the cheapest material in the cheapest fashion. Only in the towns of consequence were depots of masonry construction erected. (Or more lavish wooden depots.) NONE of the depots (even the fancier "city" ones) looked like the ornate depots that could be found in New England, or other portions of the east.

Simplistic boxes of board and batten reigned supreme, which were simply planks with battens nailed over the seams (to keep the drafts out). Board and batten was a basic building block for depots in the Ozarks.

Staying with the StL&SF in the Arkansas Ozarks, here's a look at some of their depots "back then".

First up is the mountain town of "Porter". (Later renamed "Schaberg".) The depot at Porter sat on almost a 2% grade, not very handy for stopping and switching the timber customers on the siding... but it was what it was! Note it has living quarters for the agent above.



Next is a look the summit town of Winslow. LOTS of interesting little details here to be seen! Winslow's depot also had living quarters upstairs for the agent, as is readily evidenced by the "feminine touch"!



Now, for a contrast, here's what the Winslow depot looked like shortly after it was closed as a passenger stop upon the cessation of passenger service on this line in September of 1965:



The above worn and tired "look" will offer a nice contrast between my late 1880s TOC19 era and the early-mid 1960s era!

Also note that the AHM "Rural Depot" reflects the above depots nicely: Board and batten construction with upstairs for dwelling.

Lastly, here's a small depot at the small community of "Lancaster, AR". I like the way its supported on stilts with a platform w/guardrail. There is NOTHING at Lancaster now.



SO, as you can see from this sampler. I will have an interesting pallet of imagery from which to draw modeling inspiration! I won't be suffering TOO bad for leaving Colorado behind!

All fer this 'un!

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 01/23/2019 4:17:51 PM

Country: | Posts: 811 Go to Top of Page

railman28
Fireman



Posted - 01/23/2019 :  3:26:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice photos. I'm going to use that flower pots on the 2nd floor detail.

It's only make-believe

Country: USA | Posts: 5219 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 01/26/2019 :  12:48:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bob:

Yup on the flower pots! I hope to model autumn, so don't think I'd have a need for same.


All:

Stumbled upon a pleasing (proportionally) combination that I think can yield a nice looking MDC OT Mogul using the MDC 2-6-0 w/63" drivers.

I always thought the stock MDC OT Mogul w/63" drivers looked a bit... I dunno'... "ungainly". Just never could get into its lines. As a refresher, here's a couple pics of a box stock MDC OT 2-6-0 w63" drivers:








I always thought the drivers were a bit disproportionate (large-ish), especially in view of the habitats that I envisioned over the years for my OT engines: Ozarks or Colorado.

Well, I happened to think of something I tried a while back, and decided to revisit the idea, but take it a bit further.

So, using one of my modified MDC boiler/cab off one of my old "Black Mountain" engines, as well as using one of my modified (shortened) cylinder saddles, BUT, the MDC 63" frame was fitted with Mantua drivers from their "Rogers" Ten Wheeler.

Once I had it all mocked up, I thought the lowered boiler/cab settled onto the frame nicely, and the wheel diameter looks quite good and more "appropriate" for a little mountain pike of the late 1880s.

If you will, overlook the late TOC19 "look" of the boiler and details, instead focus mainly on the proportions. As you do, compare the MDC 63" driver in the picture that comes stock on their 63" Mogul. As can plainly be seen, there's a significant difference between the two. That said, here's a pic:



And here's a view of it with a tender, which to me, makes it look ever better:



With the Mantua drivers and the lowered boiler/cab, the overall stance/look of this combination is growing on me. I think I could get into a late 1880s version of this combo for passenger service.

Thoughts?


Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 01/26/2019 12:49:24 AM

Country: | Posts: 811 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 01/26/2019 :  09:31:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Andre,

I agree that it looks better with the smaller drivers. What is the diameter of the replacements?

Mike



Country: USA | Posts: 5250 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 01/26/2019 :  10:58:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike:

I figured that question would be asked. Alas, I forgot to grab a measurement when out in my building yesterday evening. Later today when I'm out there I'll get a measurement and get back to you on that.

AHM Rural Depot:

Received my first eBay purchase of same yesterday. It's been so long since I've had a box stock version of it, I took it with me out to the building last evening and looked it over and hastily made some exploratory mods, and while doing so, noticed a sign of the aging process of the molds.

First, the mod I'm going to perform...

One of the items that I've never cared for with the AHM Rural Depot is the casting "draft angles" present on the bay window mullions on the angled portions of the bay. So, last night, I tried lightly and carefully filing said thick mullions, and I think the effort is going to be well worth it. Here's a picture illustrating the stock mullions (top) and the modified mullions (lower):




While working up close and personal with the front section, I noticed a couple of locations where the casting "plugs" have become skewed with time and use of the old molds. Sort of bothers me. Here's a picture showing that malady:




Now, compare with an AHM depot purchased over 30 years ago when the molds were fresh:




Unfortunately, from anything closer than 2' or so, it shows up noticeably:




Now, for a run down early-mid 1960s depot version, one (or two) depots with such battens will be fine... but on a depot that's supposed to be only 10 years old? (As will be the case on my late 1880s era.) I don't think so.

So, I've got to figure out how to address the skewed batten(s).

It's never easy, is it???

All fer now.

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 01/26/2019 10:59:59 AM

Country: | Posts: 811 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 01/26/2019 :  11:25:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Andre, thank you.

I notice that the battens along the front of the bay window are deeper that the rest and I suspect they could have provided more protection from passing carts. I would try trimming the parts of the skewed batten that extend either side of where they should be. You could add strips of very thin styrene or wood to the battens fronting the bay to cover the missing bits.

Mike


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Country: USA | Posts: 5250 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 01/26/2019 :  12:11:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike:

Thanks for the suggestion. I forgot to make a plea for ideas on how to fix it. However, I figure about the only way is to chisel out the offending area and replace with styrene and file/sand to shape. Once slightly distressed so as to match the molded wood grain (the entire depot has wood grain molded into it), I might get away with such a fix.

ALSO:

There's electrical conduits and a junction box molded on one end among the battens. THOSE will also have to be dealt with on the late 1880s versions:




Again, I figure I'll have to modify a chisel blade to fit between the battens and start chiseling, followed up with sanding/etc.

Like I said: It's never easy, is it?

OTHER STUFF:

I'm (again) thinking seriously about getting out into the Ozarks sometime next week, either Tuesday or Thursday. (Supposed to be bright and sunny both days.)

Since deciding to return to the Ozarks, I'm revisiting some of my Ozark historical references, and as I do, I'm re-discovering some interesting historical tid bits that I've always found interesting, but haven't pursued. (Not much free time when 1:1 railroading.)

One such feature is the steep switchback bypass over Boston Mountain as the Boston Mountain Tunnel was being bored in 1881/1882. The switchbacks are supposed to have grades up to 4%+. Some say some of the grades are still evident IF you know where to look, AND you're up there when the leafs are gone. Well, it's the dead of winter, and the high on Tuesday at Winslow is supposed to be 30 degrees with a north wind 10-15 MPH... so that sounds close enough to "winter" to suit me! Just may do it this time. (Stayed home last week and messed with my layout project instead of taking a day out in the Ozarks!)

Okay, all fer this 'un.

Andre

P.S. Did any of you others sense "withdrawal pains" when this forum was down for 24+ hours yesterday?? I've learned this place is my favorite social interaction page for things TOC19.

Facebook moves too fast (subjects sink) and is too limiting. I love this forum and its knowledgeable participants!



Edited by - OK Hogger on 01/26/2019 12:12:20 PM

Country: | Posts: 811 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 01/26/2019 :  1:54:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike:

The driver dimensions are...

MDC "63 inch" driver: .762", or approximately HO 66".

Mantua: .704", or approximately HO 60".

The above measurements taken over the tread of the tire and NOT the flange. No explanation as to why an MDC 63" driver measures out to 66".

However, I am really warming up to the looks of this engine's driver to overall size proportions. Obviously, a lot of things would need to be changed for the late 1880s (bit longer pilot, oil lamp headlight, and possibly shorten the smoke box, for examples)... but shows promise.




While out in the building, I also disassembled Black Mountain & Northern 2-6-2 #3's mechanism, and sorted its parts into the appropriate bins. Seeing as the cab/boiler is modified to fit over a Sagami 16x30 already, it will be stripped/reused.

I ended up using #3's drivers on my AHM Genoa/MDC 2-6-0 mix/mash. (It had disc counterweight place holders installed.) Also think I've come up with a solution to solve the valve hanger interference between the AHM cross head guides/valve hanger assembly and the first driver.

Profitable time at the workbench!

Obviously, I'm in a TOC19 mood of late, and not in my diesel mode. It's all good.

All fer now.

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 01/26/2019 1:56:45 PM

Country: | Posts: 811 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 01/26/2019 :  3:20:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Andre,

I have one of those MDC moguls, unbuilt because the drivers are too large. I had the same question as you when I noticed Id written 66 drivers on the box some time in the past. Im not fond of the driver spacing for my railroad. At any rate, the Lehigh Valley had very few 2-6-0s. I need ten wheelers instead.

Mike


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Country: USA | Posts: 5250 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 01/26/2019 :  4:40:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike:

Yes, I would like allow for a few ten wheelers on my freelanced roster as well.

MDC Old Timer Ten Wheeler:

Ouch. A ten wheeler using an MDC mogul frame as a starting point will be a bit tough on account of the front driver crowding the cylinders so tightly.

Have you considered using the Mantua "Rogers" frame as a starting point?

Some time back (couple years ago?) I figured out a way to do a more compact ten wheeler using the Mantua frame, but I failed to make notes as to what I'd come up with. I THINK it entailed a new rear axle slot in order to shorten up the rear end of the wheelbase and make it more HO scale and less Sn3 scale. (The Mantua Rogers is actually closer to Sn3 than HO in overall shape/proportions.) Next time I'm out in my building, I'll see if I can dig up that project and try to recall how I was going to proceed.

Whooo boy, speaking of rosters. That's going to be a challenge that I will eventually have to address: Plan my paper roster carefully to allow for my locomotive "Givens n' Druthers" on the roster.

As I'm sure you know, entering the 1880s (and well on into the 1880s), many railroads were still into numbering their locomotives as ACQUIRED, as opposed to grouping/numbering them by CLASS. (Example: The Frisco numbered by acquisition until the late 1880s. However, the Missouri & North Arkansas continued to number their engines as acquired on into the 20th century!) Creating such a roster for a freelance effort in model railroading means that you'd better get it right BEFORE you start building the numbered models because there is NO room for additions/modifications to a roster once the models start getting made! Thus, lots of my brain matter is going to be consumed "soon" developing a roster that allows for my locomotive "Givens n' Druthers". First, I need to decide just HOW MANY engines a 160 mile long secondary main line route through the Ozarks would typically own in the late 1880s. Lots of regional roster research and head scratchin' ahead for this boy.

All fer now.

Andre



Edited by - OK Hogger on 01/26/2019 4:43:14 PM

Country: | Posts: 811 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 01/26/2019 :  5:05:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike:

Okay...

Was out in the building shutting it down before we go out to eat supper, on the Mantua frame:

I was going to mill a new rear driver slot with the same spacing as the 1 and 2 axle spacing, then shorten the frame accordingly. I was going to ditch the Mantua drive system and use an NWSL gear tower or the MDC-type NWSL 72-1 step gear, either way I was going to power it with a can motor.

Now, off to Fort Smith to eat some delish Mexican food!

Andre



Country: | Posts: 811 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 01/28/2019 :  10:27:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nothing particular today... just posting a picture of a couple helper engines at the summit town of Winslow, AR in the 1900s. Always liked this pic... even if it is too "modern".

Aside from one picture near Fayetteville, AR, dated June 8th, 1881 (that I don't have the means to scan), there just AREN'T any pics to speak of that depict 1880s railroading in the Ozarks (or Ouachitas)! Very obscure regions, photographically. In fact, aside from that one I just mentioned, I have YET to find a construction picture of the StL&SF in Ozarks during the early 1880s, and none from the Little Rock & Fort Smith during 1870s/1880s.

But I digress. The Winslow Helpers pic...




All fer now!

Andre



Country: | Posts: 811 Go to Top of Page

RyanAK
Engine Wiper

Posted - 01/28/2019 :  12:44:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Andre - I like where you're going with your locomotives. The lowered version certainly has the right stance for the region and time.

On the depot, I'd fix the mullion but leave the batten as an 'oops' where it got creamed by a baggage cart. Or an ornery mule went on a rampage. Stuff happened, even on a relatively 'new' depot.

Doing the research is fun. Finding that one photo that answers questions can be a blessing... unless it reveals that you best guess on something wasn't so good and sends ya back to the drawing board. HA!

R


Designing a 1905-ish Pennsylvania Short Line
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51030&whichpage=1

Country: USA | Posts: 113 Go to Top of Page

OK Hogger
Crew Chief

Posted - 01/28/2019 :  2:34:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Ryan:

Boiler height...

I've long ago been one to lower the boilers on my MDC OT engines. IMHO, stock, they are quite high. Here's a couple pics to illustrate. On the right is a stock MDC 2-8-0 height, on the left is one I modified back decades ago:






Now, in regards to their 2-8-0, I think the taller height can be okay to represent a 2-8-0 that was made in the mid-late 1880s, for it gives it a bit more "heft".

By contrast though (and also IMHO), the stock MDC boiler height is even more pronounced on their 51" driver 2-6-0, for there's more expanse between the 2nd and 3rd driver to accentuate the excess height:




FWIW: Taking another look inside the lowered boiler of my 2-8-0 above, I see there's another 1/16" available for lowering before the inside of the boiler rests on the top of a Sagami 16x30. That means I can perhaps come up with a visual representative of the Eureka Springs Rwy 2-8-0 #1 pictured a few posts ago.


Depot mullion..

May end up leaving a couple of the depots that way, depending on how big of a hassle it turns out to be to fix it!


Historical Pictures...

Whereas I would LOVE to find more 1880s and earlier pics of railroading in/near the Ozarks, fortunately, I'm free lancing. SO, any pictures found would be for historical interests and personal gits n' shiggles, and not necessarily needed for modeling purposes.

All fer now!

Andre



Country: | Posts: 811 Go to Top of Page
Page: of 54 Previous Topic: The Coos Bay and Willamette  Valley Part two Topic Next Topic: New W&N  
 New Topic |   Reply to Topic | 
Previous Page | Next Page
Jump To:
Railroad Line Forums © 2000-19 Railroad Line Co. Go To Top Of Page
Steam was generated in 0.7 seconds. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000