Railroad Line Forums - The Town
Railroad Line Forums
Username:
Password:
Save Password


Register
Forgot Password?
  Home   Forums   Events Calendar   Sponsors   Support the RRLine   Guestbook   FAQ     Register
Active Topics | Active Polls | Resources | Members | Online Users | Live Chat | Avatar Legend | Search | Statistics
Photo Album | File Lister | File Library
[ Active Members: 4 | Anonymous Members: 0 | Guests: 58 ]  [ Total: 62 ]  [ Newest Member: Csarnick ]
 All Forums
 Model Railroad Forums
 Micro & Mini Layouts
 The Town
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic |   New Poll New Poll |   Reply to Topic | 
Author Previous Topic: Original Kittom Lumber Company. Volume II Topic Next Topic: San Martine and Northern (Texas and Pacific)
Page: of 20

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 01/22/2016 :  11:08:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Rob Chant and I have continued to work on the track plan. He added the gentle curves which I felt were essential to give out a truly prototypical feel. I have always liked trackwork that flows in a natural way and I think the overall model looks better with them.



I was going to run with the plan as displayed here but then felt that maybe I had been too hasty. 'Have I have ended up with something a little too conventional?' I thought too myself. In fact it was mark_dalrymple's comment above that got me thinking that maybe I need to take another look at that top right corner. The model should reflect a typical and familiar setting as well as typical railroad practice BUT I suddenly thought that I should maybe take advantage of the many techniques listed on Carl Arendt's site to have trains appear or disappear. There is more scope for this with the traction part of the layout. Looking through my traction books I noticed that the track arrangements were more 'quirky': trolley cars would pop out without warning from behind a building or a wall and after trundling along the high street for a bit would disappear at some awkward angle off down some side street.

Anyhow I'm going to take another look at this issue over the weekend and after looking through Carl's site see if I can come up with something more interesting for the top right part of the layout.


http://thedepotonline.com/

Edited by - kumard on 01/22/2016 11:18:53 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 404 Go to Top of Page

Frank Palmer
Fireman



Posted - 01/23/2016 :  08:41:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit Frank Palmer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Is some of the trackage going to be dedicated to traction and some to mainline railroading?


Edited by - Frank Palmer on 01/23/2016 08:42:20 AM

Country: USA | Posts: 4124 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 01/23/2016 :  09:08:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Kumar,

I think it's pretty cool that you have teamed up with Rob Chant for this project. I enjoy seeing his track designs fall together. I see a big success from this team, like Rodgers and Hammerstein.

I like the new curves. They look very natural without being boring or too regular. I'll be interested in what you do with the trolley tracks.

As a student in Bloomington IN I lived on the other side of the tracks, literally, and on my walk home I would slow my pace if I heard a train coming. It would be out of sight and the sound muted until it burst on to the grade crossing from between the urban buildings. Always exciting.

Mike


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Country: USA | Posts: 2956 Go to Top of Page

rca2
Engine Wiper

Posted - 01/23/2016 :  11:38:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kumard....
I was going to run with the plan as displayed here but then felt that maybe I had been too hasty. 'Have I have ended up with something a little too conventional?'....


My thoughts were that 1) the intra-urban traction lines were conventional, just able to use tighter radius curves due to the difference in engines and 2) they had tougher right of way problems to solve than running tracks from a station outside of town to another station located outside of a town, especially for passenger traffic. Cheaper to use the existing streets and alleys in the city than to move a building.

Since the traction line is gone, I think of its abandoned roadbed as scenery. So the question becomes what are the signature features you want? My thoughts are that a small town might only have "downtown-style" streetcar passenger service on one street or one loop. I was expecting that your scenery might include more buildings (in addition to the on line customers) and some abandoned tracks in the street and elsewhere, both tangents and curves.

One possibility would be that the original traction depot track ran from the depot along the street and then turned into the town. The rail-served industry spur (upper right) was not part of the traction line, so that the abandoned tower had two crossings to guard. After the traction line was abandoned, Soo laid its heavier rails along the abandoned traction right of way or simply connected its spur and used the former traction tracks to serve the other industry.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.


Modeling Arizona Eastern Railroad, Hayden Junction (1920), in On30

Edited by - rca2 on 01/23/2016 11:52:36 AM

Country: USA | Posts: 416 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 01/24/2016 :  12:43:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Frank >> Is some of the trackage going to be dedicated to traction and some to mainline railroading? >> Hi Frank, no, traction will have ended at least 10-15 years before, the layout will probably be set just after the Soo Line merger of 1961 (ie 1963) and I think traction would have struggled on till the end of the war. Many small town traction systems gave up the ghost years earlier but I still want a strong flavor of traction for the location - lightweight track, some remaining infrastructure such as rotting catenary poles and any lineside details that may have survived into the early 60s. The traction company also serviced a few freight customers and the track has been left in place for the Soo to continue servicing those customers. I like the feel of history and past events when I comes to trackwork - the story of a spur or a short line, nearly invisible to most people, fascinates me, I want to know why was it built, where does it lead, who uses it now? And that's what I want for the traction part: it should point to a bigger story that is now part of the town's history.


Michael Hohn >> I think it's pretty cool that you have teamed up with Rob Chant for this project. I enjoy seeing his track designs fall together. I see a big success from this team, like Rodgers and Hammerstein. >> Yes it's awesome. Rob kindly offered his time to assist and save me the job of 'fighting' the software until I could design something half-decent. I'm trying not to take too much advantage of it.

I like the new curves. They look very natural without being boring or too regular. I'll be interested in what you do with the trolley tracks. >> Lightweight rail, lighter ties, more worn, rusty, barely usable in places, patchwork repairs, embedded in ground, sunken into mud, rusty rails within worn out concrete - all of this is much easier to do with handlaid track because you can landscape the track around the tiles BEFORE laying the rail. It's going to alot of fun.

As a student in Bloomington IN I lived on the other side of the tracks, literally, and on my walk home I would slow my pace if I heard a train coming. It would be out of sight and the sound muted until it burst on to the grade crossing from between the urban buildings. Always exciting. >> Exciting and a bit dangerous I'll bet. Glad to see you got home safely.

rca2 >> My thoughts were that 1) the intra-urban traction lines were conventional, just able to use tighter radius curves due to the difference in engines and 2) they had tougher right of way problems to solve than running tracks from a station outside of town to another station located outside of a town, especially for passenger traffic. Cheaper to use the existing streets and alleys in the city than to move a building. >> Hi Bob. Yes you are right of course, they had their limitations too and I'll bet they didn't just pop out between buildings which they would have had to have knocked down. Actually in Mill Valley where I live there used to be a railroad that went up the mountain (Mount Tamalpais & Muir Woods Railway) and right after departing the station the line disappeared between two storefronts. I have pictures of it but can't find any online - I think I had that in mind.

Since the traction line is gone, I think of its abandoned roadbed as scenery. So the question becomes what are the signature features you want? My thoughts are that a small town might only have "downtown-style" streetcar passenger service on one street or one loop. I was expecting that your scenery might include more buildings (in addition to the on line customers) and some abandoned tracks in the street and elsewhere, both tangents and curves. >> The layout has to target enough features to indicate we are in a town but the limitation is space. Also since this is small town which grew around the railroad, the railroad probably was able to avoid cramping itself into the town unlike the situation in a big city. This means that there should be space around the station and not too many buildings. The buildings will be a series of false fronts along the backdrop and most of the rest of the town will exist on the photo backdrop.

One possibility would be that the original traction depot track ran from the depot along the street and then turned into the town. The rail-served industry spur (upper right) was not part of the traction line, so that the abandoned tower had two crossings to guard. After the traction line was abandoned, Soo laid its heavier rails along the abandoned traction right of way or simply connected its spur and used the former traction tracks to serve the other industry. >> Interesting. I'll give it some thought this week. Trackwork as scenery would definitely be a way to go to display some of the sharp corners of the traction element. The Soo Line laying heavier rails would be interesting but I really want to leave a heavy flavor of traction in place just for historical reasons. If the track really started to fall apart then the Soo would have laid heavier rail but I think the layout will be set before that happened. Food for thought!

Thanks again all!! More to come this week. I'll do a full-scale paper plan (with Lego buildings?) next weekend.


http://thedepotonline.com/

Edited by - kumard on 01/24/2016 1:33:26 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 404 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 01/24/2016 :  2:27:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
. >> Exciting and a bit dangerous I'll bet. Glad to see you got home safely.

Yes, I was careful. I'd cross the track before the gates went down or the lights started, then wait patiently. The only time I felt I'd been hit by a train was my oral qualifying exam for my graduate degree.

Mike


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Country: USA | Posts: 2956 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 02/19/2016 :  6:50:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Michael Hohn >> Yes, I was careful. I'd cross the track before the gates went down or the lights started, then wait patiently. The only time I felt I'd been hit by a train was my oral qualifying exam for my graduate degree. >> I know the feeling!

A quick update.

I've just come to the end of three weeks of deadline hell so finally I can get back to things this weekend.

I purchased some Elmers Foam Board to start laying out the trackwork and buildings. These boards are 1/2 inch thick and are perfect for pinning track down. I'm also going to use thinner 3/16th inch foam board to create basic cut-outs of the buildings. I'm very much still in planning mode and this step is just to help me understand what is possible within a this small space.

The boards are 40" by 20". They will eventually end up being the actual board surfaces that the model will sit upon (and on top of a thin hardboard foundation). I need to cut them down to size to provide a 72" by 18" working surface.


Laying them end to end they are too long.


So I cut the last one down to give a working area of 72"


I purchased a roll of 18" wide drawing paper and will draw plan/s on this over the weekend.


The keep the local authorities happy I will fold away the materials at the end of each planning session.


So this weekend
1. I'm going to purchase some flexi-track to lay down and help me plan the track work.
2. I will start making basic cardboard cutout buildings to put in place. I'll use 3/16" thick Elmers foam board to create a basic set of buildings.

The more I read about the interurban/traction/trolley part of the layout the more I'm tempted to do a better representation of it on the layout. I'm now thinking of replacing one of the industries with a local servicing station (engine shed and repair facilities) for an electric locomotive still working the freight business. This would make an interesting subject and would at last allow me to have electric locomotives on the layout plus a catenary. I'm mulling it all over right now. Space is the constant limitation and I'll have to see if that idea is possible within such a small area.

My traction/trolley book arrived and is full of inspirational images of buildings from the post-war era. I'm going to try to base my buildings on prototypes found within its pages.



http://thedepotonline.com/

Edited by - kumard on 02/22/2016 6:08:26 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 404 Go to Top of Page

robchant
Crew Chief

Posted - 02/20/2016 :  3:48:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Kumar,

Good to see you finally got a break from work and you're back into the planning of the town module again. I really like the ideas of using the Elmers' Foam Board to plan the trackwork and buildings. Waiting patiently to see the results.

Take care,
Rob.




Free Layout Design Help / Some Design Ideas (All Scales)

Country: Canada | Posts: 898 Go to Top of Page

Grabnet
Engine Wiper



Posted - 02/21/2016 :  07:14:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am also interested in what you are doing with the foam board. I will use similar construction technique in my 2nd mini layout.

Doc Tom



Country: USA | Posts: 499 Go to Top of Page

rca2
Engine Wiper

Posted - 02/21/2016 :  10:27:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kumar: I am interested too in the foam board. I was going to lay out the track and draw on a plywood sheet (a rougher surface and edges), but now I will start looking for some 1/2 inch foam board to use as a drawing table instead. Great idea. Bob.

Modeling Arizona Eastern Railroad, Hayden Junction (1920), in On30

Country: USA | Posts: 416 Go to Top of Page

Frank Palmer
Fireman



Posted - 02/21/2016 :  11:33:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit Frank Palmer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
"I purchased a roll of 18" wide drawing paper and will draw plan/s on this over the weekend."

Taking on the roll of Town Planner is no easy task, but I'm sure you're up to the challenge. I'm looking forward to the results of a weekend long brain teasing binge.



Edited by - Frank Palmer on 02/21/2016 11:35:20 AM

Country: USA | Posts: 4124 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 02/21/2016 :  8:50:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Rob >> Good to see you finally got a break from work and you're back into the planning of the town module again. >> Thanks Rob. Actually it was a nice break away from the hobby for a while. It's been an intense few months getting the final elements of 'The Depot' in place (and I still have plenty to do on that layout).

Rob, Grabnet/Doc, rca2/Bob >> Elmer's Foam. The last layout was built on an Elmer's foam board base. It's a must have when hand-laying track otherwise you'll be doing a lot of hand drilling to fix down track spikes. Another option might be to use a combination of 1/4 cork and 1/4 Elmer's foam because the cork is firmer.

Frank >> Taking on the roll of Town Planner is no easy task, but I'm sure you're up to the challenge. I'm looking forward to the results of a weekend long brain teasing binge. >> I've had a blast today doing the planning - see the results below.

Thanks all.


http://thedepotonline.com/

Edited by - kumard on 02/21/2016 8:51:18 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 404 Go to Top of Page

kumard
Engine Wiper

Posted - 02/21/2016 :  9:52:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit kumard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ok so here are some of the steps taken today to get a feel for the full size model layout. It's been a highly educational process and nothing beats moving from the drawing to the model surface.

The elements that I wanted to capture on the full-scale plan include:
  • gentle swaying curves on the branch mainline that act as the core of the track plan.

  • removal of straights elsewhere in favor of a variety of curves.

  • an asymmetrical relationship between the mainline and the electric traction tracks whereby the traction curves are sharper, quirkier and seem to dance around the mainline.

  • the adding of a traction depot.

  • the disappearance of a traction track behind some stores.

Many of these features have been inspired by the comments of those following along. I've had nothing but great ideas given to me from the forum and I've tried to incorporate them where possible.

So I started with a printout of Rob Chant's drawing. The goal was to use it to help me space out the mainline, roadways, and buildings. I'll get to the buildings next week.


The first line to be drawn was the mainline. This acts as the foundation of the layout. I used Peco flexi-track to help me visualize the plan. All track will eventually be hand-laid.


After getting down the basics of the mainline I removed the track and traced out lines marking the rights-of-way. These curves are not quite right and I'll have to revisit them since I want to make the turnouts longer and gentler. The loop doesn't need to be so long and I may create a longer stretch of single track at the western (left hand) end.


Now for the first of the traction lines. Although the traction line crosses the mainline as per the plan I decided to make some changes to the interchange track. The original plan contained a long straight interchange track and I decided to replace that with a short curve joining the traction line to the mainline. I think it makes the plan more visually interesting and when you place it next to the diamonds it leaves an impression of a complex piece of trackwork.



Another feature I wanted to add was a traction engine service facility (2/25/16 - aka Car Barn - thanks Rob Chant). At one time this place would have housed trolley cars or trolley maintenance vehicles. Now it is the place that the traction company stores its two electric freight locomotives. The trackwork at this point would be lightweight rail with sharp curves into the service area. Btw in front is the remains of the original trolley route no longer used but still embedded in the roadway that will run along the front.


Another slight departure from the plan was the arrangement of the rear trolley tracks. Now that the interchange track has been shortened it left me space to have another track disappear behind stores and also to provide an awkward switching opportunity to the only industry located at the rear right (see the original plan). That same rear track will lead to a single track storage cassette on the right while on the left the trolley track will disappear behind some buildings to a hidden stub.


So here is where I am so far. I'll sit will this this week and will redraw some parts where necessary. I also can just draw parts of it on smaller pieces of paper that I can lay on top of the main drawing to view alternative scenarios. I'll mark up the plan with labels and post that some time this week. This is an ongoing process. I'll start adding cardboard buildings next weekend.






http://thedepotonline.com/

Edited by - kumard on 02/25/2016 4:47:21 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 404 Go to Top of Page

robchant
Crew Chief

Posted - 02/21/2016 :  10:10:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Kumar,

The rear track looks a lot better than originally planned and I really like your choice to eliminate the long tangent track. Also like the idea of adding the car barn. It's coming together very nicely!

Take care,
Rob.




Free Layout Design Help / Some Design Ideas (All Scales)

Country: Canada | Posts: 898 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 02/21/2016 :  11:24:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Kumar,

You are coming up with some great ideas here.

Next time I'm in a store that has the Elmers foam board I'm going to take a look at it. You have my curiosity up.

Mike


_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me, as I go walking that freedom highway -- Woody Guthrie

Country: USA | Posts: 2956 Go to Top of Page
Page: of 20 Previous Topic: Original Kittom Lumber Company. Volume II Topic Next Topic: San Martine and Northern (Texas and Pacific)  
 New Topic |   New Poll New Poll |   Reply to Topic | 
Previous Page | Next Page
Jump To:
Railroad Line Forums © 2000-17 Railroad Line Co. Go To Top Of Page
Steam was generated in 0.44 seconds. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000