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Bbags
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Posted - 02/25/2003 :  10:30:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This thread is for the discussion of how to do scenery. Everything on your layout is scenery from rolling stock to track to structures to etc. Therefore if you have techniques to make your model RR look like the real world please post them here.
This is the one time where I will mention purchasing a book. "How To Build Model Railroad Scenery" by Dave Frary is the best book I have found on modeling scenery. It costs about $16.00 from Kalmbach but I won mine on eBay for about half that price.

John Bagley
Modeling the Alaska Railroad in HO in Wildwood Georgia.

Edited by - Bbags on 02/25/2003 10:36:13 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 13315

Bbags
Administrator

Premium Member


Posted - 02/26/2003 :  1:22:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi all
Here is a link to a post from Shamus on how to make rock work using plaster.
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3892



John Bagley
Modeling the Alaska Railroad in HO in Wildwood Georgia.

Country: USA | Posts: 13315 Go to Top of Page

Eddie Landreth
Fireman

Posted - 02/27/2003 :  01:29:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Most of us have probably heard of modular benchwork. I decided to take that concept one step further with what I call "modular scenery". Below is a photograph of my first attempt:



This method has 2 major benefits:

1. It can be completed at the workbench. This is great because it is much less tiring than standing on your feet for prolonged periods of time at the layout creating the scenery. Additionally, because you're working on it at the workbench, you're able to take greater care with making it look better. This particular module will be at the back of a 4' wide section of benchwork, so making it in place would have been very difficult (which is what inspired this method in the first place).

2. It's reusable. I've torn my layout down several times, and each time the scenery gets destroyed. This piece of scenery can be easily reused on the next layout.

The above example was made using the basic method of using ceiling tile cut into about 1" strips. A large piece of masonite was used as a backing for it, and the strips were then stacked and glued to each other and the masonite with Liquid Nails. All of this was followed with carving the gouges, painting on a slurry of plaster of paris, painting on a base coat and final coat, and finally lichen and trees glued in place.

This method of scenery worked out great for me, and I plan to do other modules as well. Once they're all in place, it'll be a simple matter of bridging the space between them with a little scenery to tie it all together.

I took numerous photos of the entire process and plan to add them to my website. If anyone wants to see the step by step process, let me know and I'll post the link when I get it uploaded.

Regards,



Country: USA | Posts: 2714 Go to Top of Page

Bbags
Administrator

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Posted - 02/27/2003 :  09:08:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Eddie for your post.
Great information here.
Please post a link to this on your web site when ready.
I would also recommend that people visit your web site for there is lots of good information on the rebuilding of a layout.
The link is under Eddie's signature in the post above.



John Bagley
Modeling the Alaska Railroad in HO in Wildwood Georgia.

Country: USA | Posts: 13315 Go to Top of Page

MikeC
Administrator

Premium Member


Posted - 02/27/2003 :  09:34:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neat idea, Eddie!

Another good scenery reference is the Woodland Scenics' Scenery Manual. Consisting of nearly 150 pages and many color photos/drawings, the book was revised and expanded last year from the earlier edition. It is full of how-tos, tips, and ideas for scenery and structure detailing. In the back of the manual is a partial listing of all of WS's products and a glossary of scenery terms.

It costs approximately $10 (depending upon vendor) and can be purchased in LHS's, from Walthers and Scenic Express, as well as some Hobby Lobbys.



Country: USA | Posts: 21584 Go to Top of Page

Bbags
Administrator

Premium Member


Posted - 02/28/2003 :  9:36:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Trees
Here is a review of a company that produces trees.
This is from a Yahoo group
ScaleTree.com Trees

- A mini-review -

A couple of weeks ago I received my order of trees
from ScaleTree.com, and I am very impressed! It took a
while to get, since their shipment was tied up in the
back log of the West Coast shipping strike, but well
worth the wait. Wow, these are some big beautiful
trees! I ordered an assortment of sizes and one of
each phase of completion. I have now had a chance to
experiment and use them. Great stuff!

The completed trees are shaped like a huge rounded
White Oak, but they can easily be reshaped to for
different purposes. I took some scissors and wire
cutters to a few to make great shade trees with the
buildings tucked under them.

The armatures are fantastic with a covered wire
armature that is easily re-positionable for quick
changes. The bark texture is grey and fantastic. Their
bark is not shiny plastic from of an injection mold,
but a painted on flexible covering with good texture
and color. They are pretty much indestructable.

I will definitely be ordering more now that I know how
incredible they are! I wanted to pass on my excitement
and my review of the products.

you can find them at http://www.ScaleTree.com and
their online "how to" section is helpful in using and
changing the products. I emailed them a question that
was not convered in the "how to" section, and they
promptly answered my question, and said they would
soon be expanding their online "how to" section.

Happy modeling,
Jake







John Bagley
Modeling the Alaska Railroad in HO in Wildwood Georgia.

Country: USA | Posts: 13315 Go to Top of Page

MikeB
Crew Chief

Posted - 02/28/2003 :  11:50:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I read recently about somebody using wood that had been attacked by termites as rock faces. I will soon have 20 or more feet of well termited, treated wood beams (as soon as I have pulled it out of my basement ceiling and replaced it with new lumber), has anyone heard of this or know anything about this scenery method?

MikeB

Building the first trans-Atlantic Railroad

Country: | Posts: 578 Go to Top of Page

Eddie Landreth
Fireman

Posted - 03/02/2003 :  4:09:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FYI, I've got the step-by-step instructions on my web site about how to create the Modular Scenery shown in this thread. Just click on the following link and then click on the "Methods" button.

http://eddielandreth.20m.com/



Edited by - Eddie Landreth on 03/02/2003 4:10:29 PM

Country: USA | Posts: 2714 Go to Top of Page

Bbags
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Posted - 03/04/2003 :  09:18:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MikeB

I read recently about somebody using wood that had been attacked by termites as rock faces. I will soon have 20 or more feet of well termited, treated wood beams (as soon as I have pulled it out of my basement ceiling and replaced it with new lumber), has anyone heard of this or know anything about this scenery method?


Hi Mike
I found this on the Atlas Forum discussing the above topic.
This reminds me of a when I was in junior high and one of my friend's dads had an HO model layout. To simulate cliffs he used wood that had been attacked by termites. It was really great looking stuff. There was an aticle in a book published by Lionel in the mid-1950's suggesting the use of these materials. Yep, you guessed it, the termites were still around and created havoc on both the layout and the house.


Good luck with your wood beams



John Bagley
Modeling the Alaska Railroad in HO in Wildwood Georgia.

Country: USA | Posts: 13315 Go to Top of Page

MikeB
Crew Chief

Posted - 03/04/2003 :  09:50:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That was where I first saw mention of this John, I was just wondering if anybody else had ever heard of it. Looking at the lumber I can see the possibilities, with a little paint it would look very good.

MikeB

Building the first trans-Atlantic Railroad

Country: | Posts: 578 Go to Top of Page

Bbags
Administrator

Premium Member


Posted - 03/13/2003 :  08:44:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi all
The following is a lecture given on Modeling Water in 1994. While old it does cover most of the available methods.


ASSOCIATION OF VICTORIAN MODEL RAILWAY CLUBS INC.

ONE DAY CONVENTION

MODELLING WATER

PRESENTED BY RON WRIGGLESWORTH

SEPTEMBER 17, 1994



MODELLING WATER ON YOUR RAILWAY.

Depicting water on a model railway layout is no longer the problem it used to be. By using any number of methods, nine of which are described in these notes, water can be easily represented on your model railway.

Select the one, which best suits your needs! But do not forget to experiment with variations or your own methods and ideas, you may surprise yourself with what you achieve.



REAL WATER
Real water is not model water and therefore is not suitable for use on a model railway.

You could possibly bend the rules if you are using L.G.B. or one of the larger live steam scale models in the garden, but the final effect would still be questionable.

You just cannot get water to reduce the size of its ripples to match the scale you model in. In H.O. or N scale and definitely in Z scale the smallest ripple is a tidal wave.

This phenomenon is often evident in older movies where model boats have been used. The bow waves or the waves of the ocean never match the scale of the model boat! Modern movies have improved on

the past attempts by increasing the size of the model, but you can still tell it is a model in a pond!

2. PAINTED AND VARNISHED PLASTER

This was the accepted method for modelling water for many years and there are still modellers, particularly in England, who can achieve outstanding results using this method.

The surrounding topography is created and a depression left for the expanse of water. Pouring a sloppy plaster mix into the depression creates the area of water to be modelled. All air bubbles are removed and the plaster is left to set. If a smooth water surface is required no further action is required. If a rippled or waved surface is required the plaster is worked into the required pattern as it cures.

Once the plaster has thoroughly dried the water surface is painted with blues, greens or browns to represent the type of water being modelled and then given a number of coats of full gloss varnish to

achieve the wet look.

The key to this method is to be able to paint the water surface realistically.

3. PERSPEX

Perspex or any of the other clear "plastic" sheets have replaced glass as the medium to represent a sheet of smooth water. Glass was always susceptible to breakage with the ever-present possibility of cut fingers or hands.

If you wish to model the below water level detail this method is very difficult to execute as the scenery has to be modelled in two layers. The scene below the water level has to be created, the perspex water surface added and then the above water scenery completed to match that below the water level.

It is very difficult to match the two layers of scenery!

4. WATER PAPERS

There are a number of commercial water papers or plastic sheets available in hobby shops today. Unfortunately they all suffer from the same drawback; they repeat the same pattern over and over

again!

They can be inserted into the scenery and the banks built out over them or you can trim them to the shape of your water feature and insert the profiled water surface after the scenery is completed.

Either way will work.

5. VARNISH

For smaller areas of water, such as dams, small lakes, creeks and puddles, a number of thin layers of any cheap brand of full gloss varnish can be poured into the pre-detailed area to achieve a quite

realistic representation of water. The varnish dries a cold tea colour that is suitable for most water areas except the sea.

The site for your water feature is modelled and the bed detailed if shallow or painted to represent depth if this is your preference. A layer of varnish is added to the prepared area and will undoubtable soak into the scenery. The second application may also soak in but eventually the "water" will stay where you want it.

Do not add the next layer of varnish until the first one has set and only add successive layers until the required depth is obtained.

With this method patience certainly is a virtue, but the final effect is worth the wait!

The method is slow, it can take a fortnight to complete a pour and the first few applications invariably soak straight into the scenery but it is the cheapest way I know to represent water.

6. "PLASTIC" WATER

This method uses any of the fibre glassing resins (not casting resins) to represent water with ease and can produce water of reasonable depth. The resin can be tinted to produce the water colour you desire.

To create your expanse of water, the area is first formed, sceniced and the bed of the river or lake is detailed. If you wish to represent depth in your water the middle of the depression should be painted a dark brown or black and the colour lightened as you work towards the bank.

The depression is then filled using a two-part fibre glassing resin.

Tins of both parts of the "model water" are available here in Victoria as Four Seasons Fibre Glassing Resin from ONE STOP PLASTICS Pty. Ltd., 19 Ardena Court, East Bentleigh. (03) 579.2044

The water produced is strong, flexible and slightly tinted if you use it "as is".

With time the surface may dull but it can be rejuvenated by polishing with a very fine wet and dry paper or just give it a coat of full gloss varnish.

The only downfall with this method is the cost! A reasonable size river with a modelled depth of about 20 mm. could cost as much as $35 to $40 to pour.

7. WOODLAND SCENICS PLASTIC WATER

A reasonably new product onto the market the "water" is supplied as large beads. It is heated until it becomes liquid and poured into your prepared waterway. According to the instructions it is simple to use and it produces a crystal clear representation of water.

My personal experience and discussions with fellow modellers who have used the product have shown that the product can be difficult to work with. If not treated properly your model water can crack as it dries and if care is not taken will certainly crack at the edges once it has cured.

It cures from its molten state rapidly and may need reheating with a hot air gun before you have achieved the effect you desire.

Edit:
Since this article was published Woodland Scenics has produced a new product that can be poured without heating.

8. GLOSS MEDIUM

If you need to model running water, or a beach with waves, the product you need is Acrylic Gloss Medium, available from artists supply shops.

The product is a white creamy substance, similar to PVA glue, which artists blend with acrylic paints to change the texture and gloss of the dried paint.

The "water" must be poured or spooned into the prepared water bed and worked to the edges. The surface can be worked into ripples, troughs or waves and it dries to a gloss finish.

9. CRYSTAL CLEAR SILICONE

There are a number of these products on the market today and any of them will produce a representation of clear rippled water. The silicone that can be cleaned up with water is definitely recommended.

The silicone is applied to the prepared watercourse and must be worked into shape with wet fingers or an old kitchen knife that is kept wet. This can be a messy job and unless you are very careful

you tend to get "water" all over your hands, your cloths and your scenery.

We all know what it is like to work with silicone, but if used carefully a reasonable representation of water can be achieved using this method.

10. ADDING RIPPLES

The methods for creating your water outlined in suggestions 3, 5, 6, and 7 all produce a smooth water surface. If you wish to add ripples or waves to your water, it can be done by forming the crests and depressions with either GLOSS MEDIUM or CRYSTAL CLEAR SILICONE.



11. CREATING WATERFALLS

Modelling waterfalls can be a task fraught with frustration and heartbreak. Because of the nature of the feature it is difficult to model, but it can be done, well almost any way!

Here are three methods I have used to produce a reasonably realistic model of a waterfall.

Clear silicone sealer is spread onto a sheet of glass to form a long thin strip, the width of the required waterfall. If the glass is smeared with Vaseline or petroleum jelly before the silicone is added it will be easier to remove. Once the silicone has dried, peal it from the glass and you now have a waterfall. The silicone strip can be glued in place with a blob of silicone in the prepared area with the smooth face inwards. Adding a touch of full gloss varnish to the waterfall and adding some off-white foam at the base of the drop will give your waterfall a better appearance.

Another method, which also uses silicone sealer, is to reinforce the strip longitudinally with thin clear plastic filaments. When I used this method to produce a waterfall, I obtained the filaments from an old T.V. light that consisted of a spray of thin clear plastic fibres illuminated by a coloured light. The reinforcing produces a hint of vertical fall in the waterfall and also gives the silicone some body so that it is easier to handle.

A simpler method is to glue clear plastic strips into position and to coat them with full gloss varnish. If the varnish can be poured into the river above the falls and let run down and over the falls it does produce a good representation of a waterfall. Again add white water and ripples below the falls to give the correct effect.



Good luck with modelling your water.


















John Bagley
Modeling the Alaska Railroad in HO in Wildwood Georgia.

Country: USA | Posts: 13315 Go to Top of Page

jimmydeignan
Engine Wiper



Posted - 03/13/2003 :  4:54:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit jimmydeignan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
John, or anyone! I haven't rec'd any of the SW kits I've ordered yet, including Foss'. I was told to expect them early next week! Do the instructions for building the kit go into detail about water? If so, what method does he suggest? THANKS.
JIM



Country: USA | Posts: 489 Go to Top of Page

Bbags
Administrator

Premium Member


Posted - 03/13/2003 :  5:07:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Jimmy
Yes in the Foss' Landing kit the last page of the instructions is about pouring the water.
Brett recommends Envirotex Lite resin which is pretty much the standard for resin pours now.
The instructions for how to use this are very good in the manual.



John Bagley
Modeling the Alaska Railroad in HO in Wildwood Georgia.

Country: USA | Posts: 13315 Go to Top of Page

Bbags
Administrator

Premium Member


Posted - 03/16/2003 :  5:27:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here are some miscellaneous topics found at the Scenery Yahoo Group.

1) Things found around the house to use in modeling scenery

Well, using things that are made for modeling is obvious...but there
are many non-modeling tools, materials and other items not intended for
modeling that can be very useful in modeling...Jack and Barb are
probably
masters at finding yard sale "junk" that at first glance might seem
useless for modeling but they manage to find an appropriate use for
it...sawdust and coffee grounds are old time modeling materials but
there are many more less obvious materials and the only limits are your
imagination...and many things, such as the blender, can be discovered by
accident...I was watching my wife throw some crackers in her blender one
day to make a topping for a casserole and when I saw how fine the
particles were I thought that might do the same with foam...my first
attempt got good results but was a mess as the static cling made it
stick to everything including the inside of the blender...my wife saw
the mess and informed me that her blender was now mine and she would get
a new one because she wasn't going to clean it out (and she wasn't
smiling when she said it!)...well, on the next attempt I put some water
in the blender with the foam and that eliminated the static cling...I
also discovered some black elastic thread in my wife's craft supplies
that makes good HO telephone wire...and her acrylic paint that we have
discussed before (I now have a bigger supply of acrylic paint than she
has)...and it was in her craft supplies that I discovered Modge Podge of
which I have already used more than 10 16oz bottles on my layout...it is
nothing more than a very thick matte medium...I use it full strength as
an adhesive for clump foliage and other things (like on the strawberry
fields that I mentioned last week)...when diluted 10 to 1 with water it
is identical to the WS matte medium at a fraction of the cost and I
spray it over all my completed scenery to keep things in place when
cleaning the layout (it dries flat and invisible)...it is also good as a
track ballast adhesive...my wife then informed me that there is also a
Modge Podge gloss medium so I bought some to experiment with...using it
full strength it makes nice water and I also made the ice on a skating
rink with it...clear and white acrylic caulking makes good waves on a
lake...now when I go to a store I check out the hardware, automotive,
toy, houseware, craft and other departments looking for items/materials
that can be used in modeling...it doesn't replace a hobby store but it
is sure a good supplement...also, for lighting and automated projects
you can get a lot of good parts such as motors, switches, wiring
harnesses, gears, pulleys, lights, LEDs, etc., from discarded appliances
such as VCRs, stereos, etc...so don't restrict your searches to hobby
stores...yard sales are also a good source but I'm retired so I don't
have enough time to waste checking them out (I'm only partially joking
about that as it does "seem" like I had more spare time before I
retired)...don't be afraid to experiment with new things that aren't
specifically intended for modeling.


2. Animation and lighting

"Are you building a still life?" So read the header some years back
for MRC. They were touting improvments in their power supplies to
give model railroaders better control of their trains. With today's
DCC, that is now a moot question.

Or is it? "Are you building a still life?" could also apply to that
part of the layout not on the tracks, and is equally applicable to
some classes of dioramas. You have miniature people everywhere, but
are they "alive" or just statues? What on your layout says "People
live here"?

For starters, how about lighting? This is the easiest and cheapest
way to add a little life to the scene; even if you can't see the
(lack of) detail inside an industrail building, the mere fact that
light is shining out thru the dirty windows says that something is
going on inside. Working street lights add immensely to a scene in
miniature, as do lighted signs for the stores downtown. One small
step further gets to working lights in railroad crossbucks and the
moving lights of a theatre marque.

So much for "visible" light. "Invisable" light is a misnomer, but
what I have in mind is to get shadows to work for you, moving
shadows in point of fact. This can be done mechanically (it's all
done with smoke and mirrors) or electronically. Pay a long visit to
Jim Well's site
http://www.fantasonics.com
for a far better explanation than I am capable of. Short version, if
the light appears to vary over time, then "something/someone" is
making that happen. Jim refers to this as "electric inhabitents".
Jim also has available some tapes for subtle background sounds that
I must try someday soon.

Onward and upward in our search for life on the layout, and I do
mean upward. Moving roof vents are subtle and may not catch the eye,
but the mind records them and deduces life in that building.
Campbell's roof vents are easily modified for this, as they come in
two pieces from the manufacturer. Thru-the-wall fans are a little
more difficult to animate, but do-able. Can't find a suitable fan? A
circle of clear plastic with thin stripes painted on it will work
about as well, particularly from "two feet" away. In the subtle
class I also place things like a moving conveyor belt or an elevator
that actually goes up and down. That last could be done with just a
light.

Raising the ante once more, how about moving vehicular traffic, or a
parade? And NO, I have not (yet) figured out how to get a marching
band to actually march in HO. "Model motoring" sets or an endless
belt with magnets have worked for some, but there pitfalls in the
nature of "everything is moving all the time at the same speed".
There is probably a software/hardware guru somewhere working on that
problem, if indeed it has not been solved and I just haven't heard
about it.

And now for the "Inna-you-face" type of animation. Have any of you
ever been to a train show where one of the display layouts had an
operating carnival? If you have, you KNOW where the most crowded
part of that show is. The ride modelers group here on Yahoo is about
half the size of this one and is dedicated to just that. Lights,
action, and, in some cases, sound, bring that "world" to life! Given
that most of that group are current or ex carnies, the realism can
be breath-taking. For those who like the idea, but don't want to
dedicate that much time, money and/or layout space, IHC makes
several kiddy ride and concession stand kits that can be "set up" in
a parking lot or on a blocked-off street for a smaller version of
the same thing. One of things that I have "in progress" is a set of
three timer cams turning at slightly different speeds to stop/start
about a (future) dozen or so kiddy, standard, and 'major' rides.
Doing the Ferris Wheel prototypically is still undo-able with what I
have, but...

Side-bar: Realism and believability are not necessarily the same
thing, or not in my mind anyway. Realism is how-it-is/was, and
believibility is how-it-could/should-be/was. Modeling a 1930ish
amusement park leaves me unable to use many of the kits available as
designed, since they did not exist in that time frame. But I can,
and will, use rides that were probable, like a "Spirit of St. Louis"
themed airplane ride, and some of the designs that I have found in
the US Patent and Trademark Office files. Some may have never been
built, but they were issued patents prior to 1930, so using them
is "believable" if not necessarily "realistic".



Jack "The trolley nut" Priller
"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." M. Twain


3) using foam peanuts for mountains

Much of the hill areas on my layout were done with the foam packing
peanuts (sometimes called foam popcorn) covered with paper towels coated
with joint compound (but any plaster will work)...after a couple layers
of plaster coated paper towels have dried I just trowel on more joint
compound to make it thick enough to drill holes for planting
trees...trowel thin layers at a time and allow to dry before adding more
because putting on too much at a time will result in cracks when it
dries and shrinks (I usually allow 24 hrs between layers)...built up
thin layers will not crack...I have some photos of these areas on my
internet photo album but they are finished areas so it doesn't show the
foam peanut construction underneath...the larger "ski" mountain was done
with plaster covered foam blocks and although the end result is the same
it was more work and messier than the foam peanuts...btw, see my
previous post about spraying the foam peanuts with water to keep the
static from making them fly all over the place and/or sticking to
you...the water also holds them in place while applying the matte
medium/white glue...I also mix color into the plaster so that if it is
later chipped it won't show a bare white spot...for cliff areas I put
rock molds on top of the plaster base and blend them in with a palette
knife and/or stiff paint brush...I make my own rock molds by finding
rocks that look right and paint them with many layers of liquid
latex...when it is dry you just peel it off and fill with plaster and
these molds can be used over and over...for very large molds you can
reinforce them with fiberglass screen netting (or wedding veil material)
which is put on after a couple of layers of liquid latex has been
painted on and then add more of the liquid latex over that...however
most of my molds are thick enough that they don't need the
reinforcement...

Rod





4) More on little people

Jack Priller wrote:

> Which remindeth me of something I forgot when I did the "garage sale"
> post. Lindberg (and possibly others) have/had a line of 1/96 scale
> ship kits, many including figures. These can sometimes be found on
> the "secondary market" for pennies on the dollar.
> Before someone reports me to the prototype police, do the math: a 6'
> tall figure in 1/96 is about 5' 5" in HO, a fairly common height
> among the human race. Kit I picked up (Captain Kidd Pirate Ship) has
> 20 figures, several of them positioned for climbing the ratlines,
> which makes them perfect for climbing ladders. A couple of the others
> are kneeling "gunner's mates" with an out-stretched hand that have
> several possible uses.
> Just another possible source of figures in different positions and
> sizes to add variety to you scene.








John Bagley
Modeling the Alaska Railroad in HO in Wildwood Georgia.

Country: USA | Posts: 13315 Go to Top of Page

Bbags
Administrator

Premium Member


Posted - 03/17/2003 :  6:19:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi all
The following is a web site I found that has a section on scenery. It is a question and answer type of site.
http://www.ndrr.com/rmr_faq/faq-index.htm
There are also other interesting sections.



John Bagley
Modeling the Alaska Railroad in HO in Wildwood Georgia.

Country: USA | Posts: 13315 Go to Top of Page

Bbags
Administrator

Premium Member


Posted - 03/19/2003 :  09:17:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi all
Here is more on pouring water from the Atlas Forum
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Hi all. For those of you interested in and following my water project, here is/are some additional data, comments, observations and thoughts that I either forgot to mention in the original post, or occurred after posting the original. I was just going to e-mail the info to those who expressed an interest and those who responded to my post, but then I realized that there are folks who sit quietly on the sidelines and just read the forum, and they may be interested too.

Also included here are some initial observations/notes on my test pour using Castin’ Craft Clear Casting Resin (which will be used Sunday for the second layer). So, here ya go-

Additional data on 1st layer (Envirotex Lite):

- I wanted to insure I had no “floaters” in my water, so I thoroughly vacuumed the creek bed and surrounding area the night before the pour. This cleaned up any loose scenic material, pebbles, sand, etc. that may have been missed in previous cleanings.

- The week prior to the pour I was busy finishing up (detailing) the creek, touching up scenery details, spraying on Dullcoat, etc. I had wanted 3 full days drying time for the glue, Dullcoat, paint, etc., but I only ended up with 2 days. I wanted to insure a full and complete drying of everything so there would be no risk of air bubbles, discoloration, etc. from water, glue, paint or any other liquid substance I used. It worked for the most part. I did notice 1 small patch of opaque discoloration near (under) a bridge. What caused this I do not know. Perhaps latent wetness? Maybe 3 days drying time would have been best.

- Room temperature got to 71 degrees F, outside temperature got up to about 75 degrees F. Low humidity. Working time was pretty good (long). At 3 hours after the pour the Envirotex was still not “stiff” and would ooze back into itself if poked, prodded or lifted. 6 hours after the pour there was some stiffness and it had begun to jell, but it still would not maintain sharp “shapes” (splashes, etc.) and collapsed back into itself leaving small, rounded “ripples.” I left it alone after that.

- 10 hours after the pour my poured “observational residue” had become semi-hard. Prodding it with a finger felt like pushing a full plastic butter tub, milk jug, etc. It was hard, but “gave,” though no finger impressions/depressions were made/formed. 24 hours after the pour it was solid and would not give.

- I did not have any problem with air bubbles. Though there were many formed when I “whipped” (mixed) the Envirotex, after the pour they all disappeared, rose to the surface and burst, etc.

- I previously mentioned the smell. It was noticeable, but not overpowering, even in an enclosed room. 8 hours after the pour the smell was pretty much gone, unlike the Castin’ Craft which I will describe below.

- There appears to have been little, if any shrinking or settling.

- As previously mentioned, the consistency of the Envirotex was that of room temperature honey. I had to “help” it flow to, and fill in the edges of the creek bed, around the reeds, etc. I poured “pools” on either side of my bridges, then pulled and pushed the pools together under the bridges. It seemed that once and area was “wet” with a thin layer of Envirotex (for example, “painting” it around the reeds, on my sandbar, and along the creek bed shoulders using a paintbrush dipped in it), the main “puddles” would then flow into the area(s).

- Creep. I had read about Envirotex “creep” up the sides (shoulders) of the creek bed, and yes, it does happen. I don’t understand why it wouldn’t flow into all the recesses, cracks, crevices, etc. in and along the creek bed, but would still creep. Oh well. It’s gonna happen. It doesn’t look “bad”; it’s just a small glossy “stripe” along an otherwise flat (matte) creek bank. Instead of painting over it, I am going to try carefully brushing Dullcoat over it.

- Creep (part 2). I also got a little creep up my reed bundles. As my reed bundles were first tied, then dipped in glue, dried, and planted, this was probably due then to “capillary action.” It doesn’t look bad, but I can see it. I don’t know if the next layer’ll cover it, or if it will happen again. I don’t know how it will affect trying “fluff out” the reed bundles as I want the Envirotex to thoroughly dry before attempting to fluff them (and probably get my fingers all over the surface).

- Though the Envirotex is “crystal clear” it did appear to darken my creek bottom slightly, though not unpleasantly. It actually lends a little “depth” to it. And speaking of depth:

- My creek (and the effect I’m trying to capture) is supposed to be a midwestern creek, shallow, slow and mellow, not a wide, deep, raging river or Rocky Mountain stream. With that in mind I kept the bottom flat, painted the bottom a light color, and did a little detailing of the bed (which should be visible through the water layers). When I pour the second layer the creek will be about 2 ˝ - 3 scale (HO) feet deep.

- For those who might want to try modeling deeper waters (rivers, harbors, etc.) using Envirotex, here are a few of my thoughts/ideas: First, I would make one or more “test” pieces to practice on/with. On the layout, I don’t think you would have to make the actual bottom very deep, instead try to achieve the effect of depth through paint and/or tinting. Start dark in the middle then progressively blend it out lighter towards the sides/banks. To add to the effect, perhaps the medium used for water could/would be colored too. I don’t know if Envirotex can be tinted when mixed, but when dry it can be painted and another layer then poured, and another, etc. Castin’ Craft can be tinted when mixed, and then of course painted when dry. The colored layers would start dark and become progressively lighter closer to the surface. For waves or large ripples/disturbances, maybe pour a test ounce or so to practice on. Keep on eye on how it’s setting up, and poke, prod, lift it etc. until it finally “stays.” Maybe try Gloss Medium over dry Envirotex (though I have no idea how that would “blend”) forming your waves, etc. with a small spatula, putty or art knife. Maybe try pouring or a very, very thin layer, or even painting on a thin layer of Envirotex over that (waves formed by Gloss Medium) to “blend” everything. For small ripples, etc. I now know for a fact that if extra catalyst is added to Castin’ Craft it will “ripple” when drying/hardening. I don’t know if this effect could be achieved with Envirotex by adding additional hardener. Perhaps. But you would then end up with unequal amounts (of resin to hardener).

Test pour using Castin’ Craft:

- First, this stuff STINKS! Literally! I poured 2 test ounces, and the smell was overpowering, drove me out of the room. I had to move my test pieces, pour container, and anything else that had any of this stuff on it out to the garage. I hope Sunday is calm and warm, as I will have to have the window wide open and have a fan set up to blow out. I can see now that I’ll not be in the train room for any extended period of time while this stuff dries.

- This set’s up much, much faster than Envirotex. You have a really short window to work in, maybe 20 or 25 minutes before it starts to jell.

- Adding additional catalyst does produce a ripple effect when drying. I want about a 1/8-inch layer, and the recommended amount of catalyst (for 1/8 inch) is 15 drops per ounce. I poured two 1-ounce tests, adding 20 drops to the first test ounce, and 23 drops to the 2nd. The first (with 20 drops) gave me numerous, small, close “ripples”. The second (23 drops) produced longer-larger ripples, less closely spaced. These are ripples, not waves. Looking down from over head they are barely noticeably, but look at an angle and the are readily apparent. This then will work for the effect I am trying for.

- Again, I am “modeling” a midwestern stream. And while I have seen some really clear streams in Tennessee, Wisconsin and Illinois I am trying for a slight yellowish-green tint in my water for a little "realism.” Not a dark, river green, but just a slight tint. Using the Castin’ Craft dye I will be able to achieve this. The dye set that I bought has red, blue and yellow. I mixed a small test amount of green, using more yellow than blue, to keep it on the “yellow” side. To try for a light “olive” I then added a touch of red to the mix to “gray” it. It worked, kinda, but I didn’t achieve what I was looking for. I ended up with what I would call a “polluted” green, or something that would be found in low/stagnant water areas where vegetation, etc. is decaying. It might interesting though to pour some of this in and around my reeds, and try and blend it with the light green “main” stream.

- Cost. 16 ounces of Castin’ Craft was $13.00; 1 ounce of catalyst was $4.95. The dye kit (3 one ounce bottles) was an additional $8.95. So this is less cost effective than Envirotex (32 ounces [when mixed] for $20.00).

That’s about it for now I guess. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for good pouring weather on Sunday. I’ll make a report when the pour is complete (and when I’m able to get back in the room!). If I can provide any additional data, or answer any questions, just ask, or e-mail me.

If anyone wants a “hard copy” (in MS Word) of this or my initial pour post, reply to this post, or e-mail me.

Take care,

Mark

My layout in progress:

http://community.webshots.com/user/elpasomark




John Bagley
Modeling the Alaska Railroad in HO in Wildwood Georgia.

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