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 NMRA AP Cars Certificate "Support" Thread
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Author Previous Topic: Out of the salvage yard..... Topic Next Topic: 65 ton Whitcomb in H0 scale from Piko
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Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 06/24/2019 :  09:52:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Joe,

Your question comes up pretty frequently these days, and James is right that as long as you do all the CAD work, all is well. I’ve heard this several times from those in the NMRA who are in the know, like James.

I think the neatness of the results would outweigh questions of complexity.

Mike



Country: USA | Posts: 6991 Go to Top of Page

BurleyJim
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 06/24/2019 :  1:30:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, this is certainly a 'hot button' issue. How do you really measure complexity? If you design a part from scratch on a CAD program, is that more or less complicated than getting a few pieces of Plastruct stock and gluing them in a new shape? Did you have to sit down and think about what the end result should look like? Of course you did. Was there additional skill required? Of course there was. The question should be, as an evaluator, 'what would it take to make this model' and 'could I accomplish this same result.' It's not an easy one size fits all question.

The difference between a 'simple' model and a 'complex' model is not trivial. Take a look at the point differential in the various categories. https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/2006-judging-guide-lines.pdf

The matrices are very straightforward in how to evaluate a model, complexity is the key, a simple model is very difficult to achieve an 88 score on. Add up the scores. The 'complex' model has the theoretical high score of 125. The best a 'simple' model can attain is 90.

Jim




Take the red pill

Country: USA | Posts: 6027 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 06/24/2019 :  4:30:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good points, Jim. Being awarded the appropriate number of points requires work both in building the model and doing a good write up. That’s true for any model. If the modeler has any doubt he or she could include the CAD drawings for complex components when doing the write-up.

Mike



Country: USA | Posts: 6991 Go to Top of Page

mwbpequod
Fireman



Posted - 06/25/2019 :  08:22:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
The 'complex' model has the theoretical high score of 125. The best a 'simple' model can attain is 90.


Yet you still only need 87.5 points for the merit award.

My 1st merit award was for a flat car....simple can be "good enough".


In a time like ours seemings and portents signify. Ours is a generation when dogs howl and the skin crawls on the skull with its beast's foreboding.

Country: USA | Posts: 2296 Go to Top of Page

Joe-SVL
Section Hand

Posted - 09/23/2019 :  1:37:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit Joe-SVL's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I would greatly appreciate any guidance on how to build a bolster, such as materials used etc. I've got a pretty detailed CAD drawing for the under frame of a McKean Master Series car, and know what styrene pieces I need to build the stringers and cross members; but the bolster seems right now to be a stumbling point.

thanks

Joe in Orlando



Country: USA | Posts: 97 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 09/23/2019 :  2:12:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joe-SVL

I would greatly appreciate any guidance on how to build a bolster, such as materials used etc. I've got a pretty detailed CAD drawing for the under frame of a McKean Master Series car, and know what styrene pieces I need to build the stringers and cross members; but the bolster seems right now to be a stumbling point.

thanks

Joe in Orlando


Joe,

I usually make bolsters from wood with very little detail. However for a contest model I use styrene strip.

Do you have good drawings for the bolster you want to build?

The thing with bolsters is that the trucks hide a lot of detail but well-detailed ones will—excuse me for saying this—bolster your bid for points.

Mike



Country: USA | Posts: 6991 Go to Top of Page

jbvb
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 09/23/2019 :  2:31:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit jbvb's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Pictures and drawings of bolsters can be found in the Car Builder's Cyclopedia. Some, mostly from the pre-welding era, were reprinted in the "Train Shed Cyclopedia" magazines, which you may find at train shows or buy used on-line. There's also an index of Vol. 1-42, but I've never seen it. Publications like these and Railway Prototype Cyclopedia aren't bad investments if you're pursuing contest modeling and/or the Cars AP category.


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BurleyJim
Fireman

Premium Member


Posted - 09/23/2019 :  3:37:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joe,

Have you had the opportunity to get any of your cars evaluated yet? JBVB's tip on the "Train Shed Cyclopedia" is an excellen choicet. If you find any at Powells.com,or some online used book seller, find an issue with freight cars, they are pretty specific, and you don't want to spend money on a Steam Locomotive. yet!

PS Check your local library.

Jim


Take the red pill

Country: USA | Posts: 6027 Go to Top of Page

Joe-SVL
Section Hand

Posted - 09/24/2019 :  10:00:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit Joe-SVL's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Guys,
Thanks for the replies to my bolster inquiry.

Mike- did you just CA some styrene strips together and then sand away to create your contest model bolsters? Did these contest model bolster have tapered sides or just tapered tops?

jbvb - I looked at Powells.com and all the Train Shed Cyclopedias are "out of stock"

Jim - I have completed one car so far but I have not had it evaluated yet. My judges come from the Tampa, FL area and my plan is to have three cars (plus my Civil certificate work which I finished in spring 2018) completed before I ask them to make the trip over.

Joe in Orlando



Country: USA | Posts: 97 Go to Top of Page

Michael Hohn
Fireman



Posted - 09/24/2019 :  1:06:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Michael Hohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Joe,

There are a couple of ways to get the taper. As you suggested, you can glue up several strips to the thickness you need and then use a file to make the taper. I've done this more than once with end sills on pre-1900 boxcar and caboose models. For the caboose I had to taper in two directions.



The other approach is do do something like I did on this unfinished model:



In this case, the bolster is an early one made of several iron or steel parts; for a twentieth century bolster I would glue rectangular pieces of styrene to each side and cut off the excess. I think one would get a more accurate taper this way. It might not be any more work. It could be done in two directions.

By the way, I use a styrene solvent cement for styrene, not CA. It really welds things together.

Mike


_______________________________________
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashin' — Bob Dylan

Country: USA | Posts: 6991 Go to Top of Page

Joe-SVL
Section Hand

Posted - 11/01/2019 :  7:33:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Joe-SVL's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Drover caboose inquiry
I am intrigued with scratch building a Drover's caboose as on of my 8 cars. If anybody has any good dimensioned drawings for a Drover caboose I'd greatly appreciate it if you would send them to me at Joebrann@AOL.com Subject = Drover. Also if anybody has any good photos of the interior of a Drovers caboose that they built I'd appreciate seeing those also. Is scratchuilding a Drovers caboose a frequent way of completing the "passenger" car requirement of the Car Certificate.

thanks
Joe in Orlando



Country: USA | Posts: 97 Go to Top of Page

mwbpequod
Fireman



Posted - 11/01/2019 :  8:05:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joe-SVL

Drover caboose inquiry
I am intrigued with scratch building a Drover's caboose as on of my 8 cars. If anybody has any good dimensioned drawings for a Drover caboose I'd greatly appreciate it if you would send them to me at Joebrann@AOL.com Subject = Drover. Also if anybody has any good photos of the interior of a Drovers caboose that they built I'd appreciate seeing those also. Is scratchuilding a Drovers caboose a frequent way of completing the "passenger" car requirement of the Car Certificate.


Here are 2 that I scratchbuilt:





I gave the larger one away......

Usable for Passenger car requirement - yes. In fact, I think the smaller one won Passenger Car a few years back at a regional convention.

Plans? I build these 2 w/o any plans and just adopted picture (Cotton Belt prototype???). I rarely worry about plans getting in the way of my building whatever it is that I feel like building. Got Merit awards on 3/4 of my entries in this year's regional convention contest room.


In a time like ours seemings and portents signify. Ours is a generation when dogs howl and the skin crawls on the skull with its beast's foreboding.

Country: USA | Posts: 2296 Go to Top of Page

Joe-SVL
Section Hand

Posted - 11/02/2019 :  09:42:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Joe-SVL's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Beautiful work on your Drover cabooses. Your comment that you built the cars "w/o any plans and just adopted picture". Does that mean that you took some measurements from the photo and made you own good judgments wrt length and height of the car and size of the windows, etc? I had the very god fortune of having a wonderfully detailed article to follow when I did my first car, and I'm afraid that may have jaded my thought into thinking that I need to find the equivalent in order to start my next car. I've already lost possibly 4 months in attempting to extract consistent dimensions from a set of Mather stock cars. That activity is currently on hold. And yes I do know that the Mather Manufacturing company was not overly consistent in using the same sizes and materials across their car line.

Joe in Orlando



Country: USA | Posts: 97 Go to Top of Page

mwbpequod
Fireman



Posted - 11/03/2019 :  7:33:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joe-SVL

Beautiful work on your Drover cabooses. Your comment that you built the cars "w/o any plans and just adopted picture".


Thanks!

quote:
Does that mean that you took some measurements from the photo and made you own good judgments wrt length and height of the car and size of the windows, etc?


No. Much more basic dimensional measurement to start with - width of the floor based upon the body bolster for the trucks. Built the floors first and that defines the width of the car everywhere; castings for steps set out the platform size requirements. Basic windows and doors set the height measurement and then effectively also the length of the car. Thickness of sides and ends set the rest of the dimensions.

Several years ago I wrote a column for O Scale Trains describing scratchbuilding a trolley car end w/o measuring anything through the entire process using just 1 window casting as the reference point for all dimensions.

quote:
I've already lost possibly 4 months in attempting to extract consistent dimensions from a set of Mather stock cars. That activity is currently on hold. And yes I do know that the Mather Manufacturing company was not overly consistent in using the same sizes and materials across their car line.


Now I would have thought that info might have been published in at least 1 magazine somewhere, some time.


In a time like ours seemings and portents signify. Ours is a generation when dogs howl and the skin crawls on the skull with its beast's foreboding.

Country: USA | Posts: 2296 Go to Top of Page

Joe-SVL
Section Hand

Posted - 11/04/2019 :  5:17:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Joe-SVL's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Interesting approach. Were your cars recently judged or were they judges a while ago. In my newness at this scratch building and scoring activity I thought that the judges gave a good amount of conformity and detail points from the associated matrices for a car whose documentation packages included detailed drawings/plans, pictures, research, etc. information.

Did you detail the inside of your drover caboose and if so did you make or purchase the items you placed inside both the drover's compartment and the conductor's compartment?

Joe in Orlando



Country: USA | Posts: 97 Go to Top of Page
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